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trollcatman
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21 Jun 2014, 12:02 am

TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
. Find some evidence that either supports creationism or falsifies evolution and you will win a Nobel Prize. Notice that nobody has yet been able to do that, and if you think otherwise it just means your sources are LYING to you..


You can't convince these people with this. No doubt the Nobel committee is in on the liberal conspiracy to supress "the truth". When scientists don't take their "creation science" seriously they can just say "See, they are deliberately keeping us out". There is even a bit in the bible where it says that the unbelievers will speak against the believers, and of course when they inevitably do by disagreeing with a literal interpretation of the bible, they can say "See, it said so in the bible that you would speak against us". As if predicting criticism makes you immune to it. I know of no argument that would convince someone who already believes in creationism.



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21 Jun 2014, 12:49 am

There is also a bit in the Bible about not bearing false witness, but every creation science website, book and video does just that. Hypocrites! They ignore most of the strongest evidence for evolution and deny or distort what they do not ignore. The most despicable and dishonest practice such sources practice is quote mining, where they take something said by somebody famous out of its original context in such a way as to completely misrepresent what the person actually said. Lying for Jesus is still lying.


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21 Jun 2014, 2:05 am

why must you convince anyone??? why can't you just leave them alone. think what you want and let them think what they want. is it not acceptable that others might not think how you think??

<--- loves science, still believes in god. the two minus macro evolution are not exclusive. the way a creation scientist explained to me is that science is how we see how god worked. that is how I believe and think too.

won't read or reply here again, as I know the responses will be attacks trying to push me to not believe how I do, such won't work but will make me feel depressed and hated.



TheBicyclingGuitarist
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21 Jun 2014, 5:29 am

sly279 wrote:
why must you convince anyone??? why can't you just leave them alone. think what you want and let them think what they want. is it not acceptable that others might not think how you think??

<--- loves science, still believes in god. the two minus macro evolution are not exclusive. the way a creation scientist explained to me is that science is how we see how god worked. that is how I believe and think too.

won't read or reply here again, as I know the responses will be attacks trying to push me to not believe how I do, such won't work but will make me feel depressed and hated.


Because the efforts of well-meaning but badly misinformed people such as Moviefan2k4 are dumbing down everybody else's children besides their own, to the detriment of our country, our species, and our planet. Because I love the USA, and humanity, and God, and TRUTH, such idiocy needs to be pointed out and STOPPED.

Sure let them believe whatever they want. I have no problems with that, UNTIL they try to force their misguided and misinformed beliefs on everyone against the principles of honest science and the US Constitution. THAT is the problem. I am not the one attacking here. I am defending truth, justice and the American way.

Oh and the distinction between micro and macro evolution does not mean that these are different processes. Over time micro evolution becomes macro evolution. Saying otherwise is like believing you can go up one step at a time, but it is impossible to climb a flight of stairs. Speciation has been observed in the field and in the lab. Evolution happens (yes, even macro evolution) even if NOBODY accepted it as the fact that it is. I do not mean this as a personal attack, sly279, but denying that evolution happens is just as stupid as to deny that gravity happens. To do so is to deny demonstrable reality.

You or Moviefan2k4 or anyone else who refuses to accept the evidence of reality are of course free to believe whatever you want. Just don't try to force any beliefs that do not have evidential support into public school science classrooms, that's all I am asking. And I am not asking you to take my word for it either. It does not take very long or very much effort using Google to find out how blatantly dishonest those creationist sources are. They shame Christ by spreading misinformation in his name. Isn't anyone else offended that the side that tries to claim the moral high ground in this issue is the side that is spreading lies and misinformation and claiming to do so in the name of God?


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leejosepho
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21 Jun 2014, 6:46 am

TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
...the efforts of...people such as...are...to the detriment of our country, our species, and our planet.

Hogwash! Please list the alleged harm being done to a nation, species or even a planet by people who believe and teach all things were created.


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TheBicyclingGuitarist
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21 Jun 2014, 12:05 pm

leejosepho wrote:
TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
...the efforts of...people such as...are...to the detriment of our country, our species, and our planet.

Hogwash! Please list the alleged harm being done to a nation, species or even a planet by people who believe and teach all things were created.


It is not their belief in a Creator that is a problem, leejosepho. And accepting evolution as the fact it is does not necessarily mean one denies there is a Creator any more than accepting gravity does. It does mean that if one continues to insist on taking Genesis literally as a science or history textbook that one is increasingly out of touch with demonstrable reality. The majority of Christians worldwide belong to churches that either accept the fact evolution happens or say that whether or not it happens makes no difference to their faith.

The problem with evolution deniers is that they are sabotaging the science education of America's children. That obviously will hurt our country's competitiveness on the global market, but worse than that, mankind has many crises to face and we need educated thinkers to help solve these problems. Famine, disease, climate change and more problems can be solved or helped by science, but not if our children don't learn how to reason critically from evidence.

So by dumbing down our children by sabotaging their science education, Creationists are harming our country (even though many of them claim to be super patriots), and our species, and our planet. Earth will survive, but humans may not, and considering how much damage humans are causing it might even take Earth a long time to recover from us.

Is that enough of a list for you?


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TheGoggles
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21 Jun 2014, 1:33 pm

leejosepho wrote:
TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
...the efforts of...people such as...are...to the detriment of our country, our species, and our planet.

Hogwash! Please list the alleged harm being done to a nation, species or even a planet by people who believe and teach all things were created.


Well, for one thing, monitoring the adaptation of bacteria is kind of important in order to prevent a potentially world-ending pandemic. Ignorance of that could be potentially dangerous.



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21 Jun 2014, 1:37 pm

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
most public-school funding comes from the Liberal Left.


Except the curriculum for all of those schools has its origins in Texas, which frequently strives to insert creationist material into textbooks. Nevermind that a significant portion of the school's funding comes from whatever state it happens to be in. Pretty sure every state south of the Mason-Dixon line wouldn't identify themselves as being friends of the "Liberal-Left."



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21 Jun 2014, 3:37 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHbYJfwFgOU[/youtube]


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beneficii
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21 Jun 2014, 3:40 pm

Jono wrote:
The way I understand it, it's already illegal to teach creationism in a science classroom, at least in public schools, as the Dover trial indicated. If got a test like that, even in grade 4 (it was called standard 2, when I was in school), I would not of written the test. I already kew about evolution at that age and believed it, even though we weren't really taught it.


I remember what was in retrospect an encounter with a creationist in mid-elementary school. There was a faculty member, and at the time I was interested in dinosaurs, black holes, the Big Bang, and all that stuff, and I told him about it. The faculty member seemed a bit flustered and told me he didn't believe in any of it.

A special ed school bus driver also told me that Darwin renounced evolution on his death bed while I was in elementary school.


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TheBicyclingGuitarist
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21 Jun 2014, 3:48 pm

Telling children that the story in Genesis is literally true when there is NO evidence to support that claim could be considered to be child abuse. It's bad enough creationists do that to their own children, but hey, somebody needs to dig ditches and wash dishes. What is really wrong is that they are trying to force this nonsense into public school science classrooms where it has no right to be because it ain't science.

It is insane to be having this "debate" in the 21st century in what is supposedly one of the most civilized and advanced nations on Earth. Religious nuts would send us back to the Dark Ages if we don't destroy ourselves or our planet first. They mean well, but they are basing their opinion about evolution on LIES they are told by creationist sources that shame Christ by doing so. They make all Christians look really stupid even though it is just the fundamentalist denominations that have this problem accepting reality.

Sooner or later those denominations that deny the fact of evolution will either have to admit they were wrong or they will fade into obscurity as another failed crackpot cult. When a fundie tries to tell me their opinions about God, Heaven or Hell, I always ask them how I can possibly trust their opinion on such matters not so easily checked when it is very easy to find out they are so very wrong about evolution that has literally tons of evidence of many different types all pointing to the same reality. I also then ask them if their God is a liar or a prankster for planting all this evidence that clearly shows evolution happens when the price of our being fooled by such a prank could allegedly be eternal damnation. That is not a very nice God to do that. I don't and won't believe in a God that would play such a trick on us.


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TheBicyclingGuitarist
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21 Jun 2014, 3:55 pm

beneficii wrote:
A special ed school bus driver also told me that Darwin renounced evolution on his death bed while I was in elementary school.


What these clowns don't realize is that it would not make any difference at all whether or not that story is true (and apparently it isn't, but that is not the only LIE told by creationist sources).

Darwin's theory would be rejected by science if any evidence were found that falsified it, and so far none has. Evolution could be falsified if one were to find a fossil rabbit in PreCambrian rocks. Even then, it would not necessarily be the end of evolution (because of all the evidence we already know about that evolution explains so well), but we would have to account for that new evidence. Evolution has been observed in the field and in the lab, plus there is the genetic evidence and the fossil record. It happens!

It would not matter if Charles Darwin raped kittens and ate babies either. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not his scientific observations are valid. Creationists don't get this because since they are so hung up on obeying authority and tradition that they cannot fathom the possibility of someone changing their mind on a subject if evidence proves them wrong. They think discrediting Darwin's character somehow invalidates evolution. Wrong!

and to clarify for leejosepho, accepting evolution does NOT necessarily mean one does not believe in a Creator. That is another false dichotomy put out there by fundies. It does mean one does not believe in a Creator who is a malicious prankster.


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raisedbyignorance
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21 Jun 2014, 7:07 pm

I just don't see the point in teaching Creationism in school much less how you can even make a science out of it. It's stuff for the Sunday school classes anyway.

I mean if you're gonna make schools teach how Abrahamic religions believe the world was created then you should also teach how Hindus, Taoists, and all the other religions of the world believe the life was created. I think it's the only fair way. I'm sure there's a college level course that all about these teachings and that doesn't bother me but let's be realistic here. Evolution is a proven science. That's why we still have it in the classroom.



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21 Jun 2014, 8:28 pm

TheGoggles wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
most public-school funding comes from the Liberal Left.


Except the curriculum for all of those schools has its origins in Texas, which frequently strives to insert creationist material into textbooks. Nevermind that a significant portion of the school's funding comes from whatever state it happens to be in. Pretty sure every state south of the Mason-Dixon line wouldn't identify themselves as being friends of the "Liberal-Left."

Texas must be doing something right to have the thriving economy it does.


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21 Jun 2014, 8:42 pm

TheBicyclingGuitarist wrote:
Telling children that the story in Genesis is literally true when there is NO evidence to support that claim could be considered to be child abuse.
Oh please :roll:. Overuse and/or misuse of the accusation of child abuse is not only dishonest but it dilutes honest attempts to ferret out real child abuse cases (e.g. starvation, abandonment, physical abuse, etc. in case you've forgotten).

Quote:
It's bad enough creationists do that to their own children, but hey, somebody needs to dig ditches and wash dishes.
Having been taught evolution does not automatically relegate someone to a lifetime of limited education and menial employment. Evolutionism or creationism is but one relatively small part of the curriculum and to try and convince anyone with two brain cells to rub together that being taught one or the other is so significant as to make or break someone for life means either you think everyone one else is stupid or you are.

Quote:
What is really wrong is that they are trying to force this nonsense into public school science classrooms where it has no right to be because it ain't science.

What's the percentage of schools actually doing this and is it increasing or declining? I honestly don't know but I'm guessing a comparatively small percentage and getting smaller over time. Rome was not built in a day.


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Last edited by Raptor on 21 Jun 2014, 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TheGoggles
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21 Jun 2014, 11:14 pm

Raptor wrote:
TheGoggles wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
most public-school funding comes from the Liberal Left.


Except the curriculum for all of those schools has its origins in Texas, which frequently strives to insert creationist material into textbooks. Nevermind that a significant portion of the school's funding comes from whatever state it happens to be in. Pretty sure every state south of the Mason-Dixon line wouldn't identify themselves as being friends of the "Liberal-Left."

Texas must be doing something right to have the thriving economy it does.


China's industrial sector is expanding at a massive rate too. Let's see how long Texas and China last when their economic bubbles start to burst.