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Zephyo
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26 Jun 2014, 1:53 am

6/26/14/0:39/Central Time

I cannot sleep; my mind has been bothered by all this SCIENCE!! ! everyone keeps waiving about on PP&R as if it explains the whole of reality. Really quite troublesome, that...except, as I've recorded here before, SCIENCE!! ! has never bothered me on a spiritual level with my Faith. And, well, I felt ya'll needed to be asked a rather serious question. seeing as I keep getting slapped in the face with pathoic (pathos-based) arguments on a subject that is a question of poor ethoic (ethos-based) decisions made past and present by the extremists world-wide culture that has spawned in parallel to major globalized economies that have evolved over the last 30-60 years, and then expect me to- as a representative of my faith- present some sort of logoic (logos-based) argument to justify the choices of the malicious or ill-guided, past and present.

Makes it hard to get a discussion on the actual Ethos of my Faith without being demonized. It's toxic, and sits ill with me. Especially as there is a leniency on decency on the WP. That's fine, I don't care; as a hybrid-ish aspie, I get how blunt we are. I also know that it js exceptionally easy to leave Bait to irritate the sensitive natures of spiritual and religious folk. Seriously, having my faith compared to some addiction is hostile. Especially as threads are opened just to continue the bitter spite you all call discussion in the last thread bash.

So Logos Me This; why, when I expire and leave this coil in reality, will I be 23.5-ish pounds lighter? Excluding bowel movements...if I had my way, I'd make sure they were empty before-hand. Don't want to be accused of fabricating my SCIENCE!! ! By the way, fun spin; been throwing a silly nerd reference this whole time. Context in-setting, hilarious. Context here though? Who knows- maybe someone'll take offense. But it is now 1:51/Central time, and I am now tired. Choo choo~

Peace, and Breathe easy.



TallyMan
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26 Jun 2014, 3:26 am

Zephyo wrote:
why, when I expire and leave this coil in reality, will I be 23.5-ish pounds lighter? Excluding bowel movements


If anyone is 23.5 pounds lighter after their death it will typically be because they have donated several large organs! :wink:

Humans (and other animals) are exactly the same weight before and after death. Sounds like you are referring to the flawed measurements made 100 years ago by Duncan MacDougall who measured an average difference of 21 grams after death. However, the technology of the time and methodology used meant the figures were completely unreliable. Nevertheless, the figure of 21 grams has slipped into popular mythology.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Mac ... 8doctor%29


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Zephyo
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26 Jun 2014, 9:52 am

TallyMan wrote:
Zephyo wrote:
Humans (and other animals) are exactly the same weight before and after death. Sounds like you are referring to the flawed measurements made 100 years ago by Duncan MacDougall who measured an average difference of 21 grams after death. However, the technology of the time and methodology used meant the figures were completely unreliable. Nevertheless, the figure of 21 grams has slipped into popular mythology.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Mac ... 8doctor%29


You say this (and thank you for the clarification on the weight; knew I was sleepy), but two things bother me:

1). Animals had no recorded weight loss across multiple tests; of the 6 recordings of human weight upon death, four were reliable enough to show that weight loss had occurred upon or after death. Scientifically, the animals were weighed in a similar manner as the human counterparts of the experiment.

2). In this modern age, with all of our to the nanogram measurements and medical equipment, nobody has disproven the MacDougall experiment.

I agree, the original test isn't the most reliable; MacDougall acknowledged his Hypothesis would need confirmation by repetition. At the same time, I chuckle at how you dismiss this proto-experiment as 'mythology' when you have no scientific basis for doing so. No counter experiments, just a wiki page and a pathoic conclusion that- because the recordings have the potential to be flawed- they are immediately wrong.

Reference

Personally, I find it odd that MacDougal's story broke in a Newspaper before he published his results. I wonder if he was forced to rush his thesis after being thrust into the limelight...the article certainly didn't help him out at all.



TallyMan
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26 Jun 2014, 10:12 am

^ Dig a bit deeper with your google searches. You will find that more recent, much more accurate, experiments have been done that effectively trash MacDougall's claims.


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Misslizard
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26 Jun 2014, 10:36 am

I've wondered about this,only because being on a small farm I've had to handle dead animals,and the death of pets,to me they always seemed lighter,like something was gone.I can't really explain it.


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TallyMan
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26 Jun 2014, 11:23 am

Misslizard wrote:
I've wondered about this,only because being on a small farm I've had to handle dead animals,and the death of pets,to me they always seemed lighter,like something was gone.I can't really explain it.


Perhaps because they aren't moving or resisting in any way?

More recent measures of the weight loss of humans at death gives a rough figure of 0.03 grams i.e. the weight of the air in the lungs lost at death. The difference is incredibly tiny. It would be possible to get a more accurate measurement but would entail sealing the dying human inside a hermetically sealed chamber inside a "clean room" i.e. free of dust on extremely accurate scales. That way the air lost out of the lungs or evaporation of moisture from the eyes and the rest of the skin or the loss of a speck of dandruff could be fully accounted for too and not give rise to ambiguous readings. As measurements stand, if souls exist and have weight then they couldn't be heavier than a speck of dust. I'm sure the technology will advance and produce ever more accurate readings but based on what we know already about the functioning of the brain I don't expect to ever see any weight loss at death attributable to something called a "soul".


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Misslizard
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26 Jun 2014, 11:35 am

That's a possibility,maybe the fact that their muscles were active makes them feel heavier,I dunno,maybe it was my loss I felt.


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Zephyo
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26 Jun 2014, 2:04 pm

at TallyMan: You know, you give the weight of the air in the lungs as the evidence which disproves this hypothesis. But Dr. MacDougall's subjects all had TB, chosen specifically because they would be less likely to disrupt the scale upon expiration. Their lungs were compromised, amongst other issues I am sure. I think it highly unlikely that, if the original results can trusted, air in the lungs play a significant factor in the unaccountable weight loss. The patient's conditions made them poor test subjects, as it has been noted.

Dug through google; found little in terms of actual scientific data. Found this article which goes over the subject with some objectivity, but little science has been conducted on the weighing of humans upon death. Since you have suggested reading into such science yourself, could you link your logos instead of assuming word of mouth summary and deflection make for an effective discussion?



Janissy
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26 Jun 2014, 3:16 pm

Zephyo wrote:
...if the original results can trusted...


The original results can't be trusted.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

Quote:
It would take a great deal of credulity to conclude that MacDougall's experiments demonstrated anything about post-mortem weight loss, much less the quantifiable existence of the human soul. For one thing, his results were far from consistent, varying widely across his half-dozen test cases: 1. "[S]uddenly coincident with death . . . the loss was ascertained to be three-fourths of an ounce."

2. "The weight lost was found to be half an ounce. Then my colleague auscultated the heart and found it stopped. I tried again and the loss was one ounce and a half and fifty grains."

3. "My third case showed a weight of half an ounce lost, coincident with death, and an additional loss of one ounce a few minutes later."

4. "In the fourth case unfortunately our scales were not finely adjusted and there was a good deal of interference by people opposed to our work . . . I regard this test as of no value."

5. "My fifth case showed a distinct drop in the beam requiring about three-eighths of an ounce which could not be accounted for. This occurred exactly simultaneously with death but peculiarly on bringing the beam up again with weights and later removing them, the beam did not sink back to stay for fully fifteen minutes."

6. "My sixth and last case was not a fair test. The patient died almost within five minutes after being placed upon the bed and died while I was adjusting the beam."

So, out of six tests, two had to be discarded, one showed an immediate drop in weight (and nothing more), two showed an immediate drop in weight which increased with the passage of time, and one showed an immediate drop in weight which reversed itself but later recurred. And even these results cannot be accepted at face value as the potential for experimental error was extremely high, especially since MacDougall and his colleagues often had difficulty in determining the precise moment of death, one of the key factors in their experiments. (MacDougall later attempted to explain away the timing discrepancies by concluding that "the soul's weight is removed from the body virtually at the instant of last breath, though in persons of sluggish temperament it may remain in the body for a full minute.")

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweig ... BaYAcob.99


It was sloppy experimentation that got enshrined as proof.

I tried to find links to subsequent experiments done more recently but couldn't (so can't back up or refute Tallyman's lighter figure). In any case, then original data is not valid for reasons explained in the Snopes article and half admitted to by the doctor himself.



DentArthurDent
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26 Jun 2014, 3:51 pm

Once again we have a person of faith demand that we prove a concept is not true. The facts are the original experiment has been shown to be incredibly flawed. Surely it is up to those who believe the experiment to have some level of validity to redo it, rather than to demand the rest of us accept the findings or disprove it.


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