The surprising body part that could be causing Autism

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Shadi2
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30 Jun 2014, 12:05 am

Hi again Goldfish :)

One last comment about your other message.

I did see that you mentioned your friend is a Herbalist a few times. And yes I understand, there is other things you want to do, and it probably takes a while to become a Herbalist. It was just a thought because you seem very interested in this subject, and maybe you have a special talent for this. P.S. my previous doctor was a "regular" doctor, but also an osteopath (I think it is the right name but its been a while and I can't remember exactly, it is similar to chiropracy but it doesn't hurt, which is a big plus lol), and he was also an homeopath. He was a very cool doctor. Also thank you for the information about the ADHD medication, this is all good to know! And for answering my questions about your diagnosis, I appreciate.

About the lazy eye, it is often (not always) due to a side of the brain being more active and dominant than the other. My son himself always says that he is "left-brained". He doesn't have digestive imbalance. And his diabetes started when he was 15 year old (it seems a lot of people with diabetes type 1 become diabetic around that age). One of my ex-husband's cousin also had diabetes type 1 (also started around 15), and so did one of my ex brothers-in-law (for him it started when he was 25 or so), neither had ASD tho.

Quote:
It was after about the first week that the horrible depression was all but completely lifted. It was pretty awesome.


This really does remind me of bipolar disorder. I'm not saying that all your "ups" and "downs" were necessarily due to bipolar disorder, surely some of it was due to all the things and ailments you had to deal with, but it might be one of the causes that made it worse, to the least some things you describe reminded me a lot of my brother. The symptoms may vary depending on the severity and type as well, for example my brother has long "downs" and then long "ups" as well. On the other hand my husband's dispatcher (he drives concrete trucks) is also bipolar but his symptoms are different than my brother, he constantly gets ups and down (in the same day), and often it happens instantly, one minute he is nice, the next minute he is a complete jerk (and my husband is really tired of him lol), and he does get "manic" as well. Not every bipolar person becomes "manic", my brother doesn't, he just get depressive and it lasts for a while, then he gets in a good mood (for no apparent reason) and this lasts for a while as well. He feels better when he takes his medication, but sometimes he stops taking it because it also modifies his personality to a point (less down but also less high/up), and this bothers him. But about you, its not so much the "happy" part that hinted towards bipolar disorder, it is the succession of what you describe as deep depression, followed by the opposite mood (also for a while, like the "downs"). Again, I don't know, its just a thought. Anyway if you're cured, I guess it doesn't really matter anymore.

Quote:
It takes 6 months to detox gluten. Every once in a while if I ate something with it I'd pay for it for a few days as it screwed with my executive functions or just generally made me feel irritable or frustrated.


Note that most people who follow a specific strict diet will get this effect whenever they eat something they are not used to. Full vegetarians for example, if they eat meat, it will make them feel pretty bad, some will even puke, they also lose a certain "clarity of mind" that they get from vegetarianism, it can also make them more irritable than usual, and then it takes them a while to "detox" their body again ... which reminds me that I haven't checked the vegetarian youtube guy in a while (but I can't remember his name anyway lol).

Also I cannot stress enough that you shouldn't generalise, regardless of our argument about the nature of Autism (or different causes for the symptoms of Autism, etc), especially when talking about such a strict diet, as while it might help some people who react like you to certain food or whatever else, it might be detrimental to others. Personally I would suggest people should be very careful when trying new diets, and not change their eating habits too quickly, to give the time for their body to adapt, and also see if it truly helps them, or if it causes other issues. The same applies if someone is trying to become a vegetarian.

And the more I read, the more I realise that your diet is not for me. First of all, I don't think I would have the patience, nor the will, to be as focused as you are on such a diet. Also, among other things I never had any issues like you with dairies and gluten. But when you said "quit drinking coffee" you lost me completely lol, coffee is my favorite beverage, and I'd rather be dead than not be allowed to drink coffee. And honestly, so far I don't want to be "cured" anyway, of something that I consider a "difference", (including the impairments), I pretty much feel like Temple Grandin about this. But if I started having issues like the ones you mentioned (when you thought you were losing your mind, and couldn't tie your shoes anymore, etc) I would probably try everything I can to stop this kind of symptoms, it must have been truly scary.

I also saw that you mentioned Candida, if you look at my previous posts you will notice that I mentioned this as well, and that it can cause symptoms similar to Autism (and feeling "drunk" as well), and this has been known for a while, for some reason I thought you were talking about some other newly found bacteria. By the way, kimchi soup is my favorite meal, I eat it almost every day (and I like kimchi without the soup part too).

Ok I think I'm done for now, but there is a lot of interesting information in your post, and it was really nice of you to take the time to share with others. And despite our arguments about some words and the nature of Autism, I think you are a nice person who is sincerely trying to help others.

Also, I'm sorry that you went through such difficult times, I hope that everything will be better from now on.

And thank you for the book suggestion, I appreciate and will look into it (I don't have money right now, but when I do I might buy it) :)


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Janissy
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30 Jun 2014, 5:24 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
KC73 wrote:
Quote:
A year ago gut theory was around but considered an outlier. For a scientific theory to go from being considered a debunked outlier to mainstream in less then a year is astounding to me.

Its actually quite normal for a theory to go from apparently on the outskirts and laughed at to accepted wisdom very quickly, because the tipping point is reached and the medical and scientific communities go from ridicule to acceptance seemingly overnight. Its an acknowledged pattern with new information. And scientific progress very much isnt a slow linear process today.

I think something thats being missed here is that the gut-brain stuff ISNT exclusive to autism and, partly because of the resistance of the autistic community, most of the research and knowledge gains have happened in regards to other disabilities and illness. This isnt an anti autism theory and the "debunking" of it by people who feel its a threat to autistic identity is fear based not science based. I understand the fear of being wiped out but improving symptoms that in turn improve an individuals life is not a new idea either, and is again not exclusive to this community but does already happen in autism like with stuff like sensory processing therapys, speech therapys, use of assistive technologies etc, so treating symptoms through medicinal diet isnt really different than taking your autistic child to OT.


Usually prior to a tipping point event the meme/theory gains some sort of currency on the outskirts for a period of time despite mainstream belittlement. Nothing resembling this happened here.


But it did. The Gluten Free Casein Free diet for autism has been a fringe staple since the early 90's (first proposed in 1991 according to wiki). This microbiome theory is giving a possible mechanism for that diet. So the "autism comes from the gut" meme has been in place in the parent-driven fringe for 20 years.



KC73
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30 Jun 2014, 6:12 am

Janissy wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:

Usually prior to a tipping point event the meme/theory gains some sort of currency on the outskirts for a period of time despite mainstream belittlement. Nothing resembling this happened here.


But it did. The Gluten Free Casein Free diet for autism has been a fringe staple since the early 90's (first proposed in 1991 according to wiki). This microbiome theory is giving a possible mechanism for that diet. So the "autism comes from the gut" meme has been in place in the parent-driven fringe for 20 years.


Yep, and the FODMAP and GAPS diets are being recommended by medical specialists for other genetic conditions that have a high comorbidity with spectum diagnoses. Like I said earlier, this gut-brain research is not exclusive to the autism community, and its got further in other sectors because in other sectors the focus is on improving patients health and wellbeing rather than a battle between people who want to "cure" and eradicate autism and those who want to protect the identity no matter what the personal cost. People who arent up to date with all this can argue that its fringe and without merit, but that doesnt make it true.



Adamantium
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30 Jun 2014, 7:36 am

You mean this GAPS diet:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/gaps-diet/

I'm not so sure about that.

There is no doubt that problems in the gut microbiome can have far reaching impacts. But it's also true that there is no one-size-fits all healthy microbiome. It's possible that some interventions that would be beneficial for one person will be harmful to another.

Accounts of positive personal experience are great, but the only way to really understand what's going on is to study carefully with the scientific method, as many researchers are currently doing.

Before I go squirting herbal mixtures up my rear, I want some solid evidence that it's a rational thing to do.

The "doctor' behind the GAPS diet shows many of the signs of a quack rip-off artist. I am extremely reluctant to put any trust in that kind of operator.

It's great that you have had a turnaround and your life is better, Goldfish. Unfortunately, the narrative you provide for your research and methods make it impossible to know which of the many things you tried contributed positively to the outcome. I am sure that some of the ideas you are discussing will be proven to have a positive impact for some people, but that doesn't mean the whole course is necessary or beneficial. Without testing there is no way to know.

Please read the "testimonials" section of this:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/ ... -vaccines/



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30 Jun 2014, 8:43 am

Adamantium wrote:
There is no doubt that problems in the gut microbiome can have far reaching impacts. But it's also true that there is no one-size-fits all healthy microbiome. It's possible that some interventions that would be beneficial for one person will be harmful to another.


There is the mystery that is being researched right now. Is there or is there not a one-size-fits all healthy gut microbiome?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbiome

Quote:
Aside from simply elucidating the composition of the human microbiome, one of the major questions involving the human microbiome is whether there is a "core", that is, whether there is a subset of the community that is shared between most humans.[52][53] If there is a core, then it would be possible to associate certain community compositions with disease states, which is one of the goals of the Human Microbiome Project. It is known that the human microbiome is highly variable both within a single subject and between different individuals. For example, the gut microbiota of humans is markedly dissimilar between individuals, a phenomenon which is also observed in mice.[54] Hamady and Knight show that one can rule out the possibility that any species is shared among all humans at more than 0.9% abundance in the gut or at more than 2% abundance on hands.[53] Although there is very little species level conservation between individuals, it has been shown that this may be a result of functional redundancy as different communities tend to converge on the same functional state.[11]


bolding by me

While there are observed regional and individual differences, there may be a core that we are "meant" to have for healthy functioning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Microbiome_Project

The Human Microbiome Project was launched in 2008 as a 5 year plan so it ought to be done by now but it does not some done yet (perhaps 5 years was overly ambitious). Nevertheless, there does seem to be progress and the research cited in the OP is part of that progress. Also there's this:

http://genome.wustl.edu/projects/detail ... e-project/

Quote:
With the development of more advanced sequencing technologies that shorten sequencing times and reduce costs, The Genome Institute is now able to more effectively sequence the massive amounts of genetic information present in the human microbiome and discover what types of microbes are important to our health and well-being and what types we should be targeting to prevent disease. As Dr. Weinstock explains: ?The microbes inside our body have a huge impact on who we are, what we do, how we feel ? and we have never really defined that very precisely. That?s what we need to do to truly understand the human microbiome.?


I think previous research was stymied by the fact that a lot of the microbes in question don't grow readily in culture. But sequencing makes this ambitious project more do-able. Maybe there is a "common core" of microbes that all healthy people share. Maybe there is not. Maybe there sort of is but there is species variation. Research is ongoing but I don't think this is fringe anymore the way it was when GAPS and GFCF were developed. I don't think there will be a one-size-fits-all diet. But there may be a one-size fits-all subset of the healthy microbiome which would be supported by diets that fall within certain parameters. Those parameters are currently trial-and-error guesses (such as goldfish's trial and error) but eventually the actual parameters will be worked out once we know

1)if there is a healthy core subset microbiome

2)if there are certain parameters a diet must fall in to support the growth of that subset

3) or if there are multiple healthy core subsets and therefore multiple diets that will support those subsets.



Adamantium
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30 Jun 2014, 9:40 am

It seems to me that this was a hot topic at the American Society for Microbiology general meeting this year and that a number of papers were discussed that suggest there is definitively NOT one healthy gut microbiome.

This was discussed by Vincent Raccaniello, Michael Schmidt and Michele Swanson on the wonderful podcast "This Week in Microbiology" episode #79:
http://www.microbeworld.org/component/c ... le?id=1697

The format of this fascinating podcast is that each of the scientists introduces and reads through a recently published paper or reports on a talk and the others comment on and interpret the content.

Great information is also available here: http://academy.asm.org/index.php/faq-se ... microbiome

An example of the kind of thing that can be learned there:

Quote:
Bacterial genomes can change dramatically more quickly than the human genome. Bacteria that are distantly related can exchange genetic material in several ways, allowing genes that provide a selective advantage in a particular environment to spread throughout mixed bacterial populations. This phenomenon is why antibiotic resistance is such a big problem; if one bacterium evolves resistance to an antibiotic, the responsible gene can be transferred to other bacteria, rendering them resistant too. While antibiotic resistance may be an undesirable trait from the human point of view, the capacity of bacteria to share genes means that the microbiome can change over time at the level of individual genes in addition to changing mixtures of species. Theoretically, because the microbiome can change much more quickly than the human genome, the microbiome provides a much more rapid means for humans to adapt and thrive when environmental conditions change.

One example of such an adaptation is the discovery of a gene for digesting seaweed in the microbiome of some Japanese people. The gene is rarely found in human microbiomes outside of Japan. Where did it come from? It is usually found in environmental bacteria that feed on seaweed in nature. At some point, one such environmental bacterium, possibly while passing through someone?s gut on a piece of seaweed, transferred some of its genes to a normal bacterial constituent of the human microbiome. The gene conferred the ability to digest the seaweed that is a common part of the Japanese diet, a capability that is now part of the genetic capacity of the human microbiome in Japan.


This supports a community of cooperating ogranisms or ecological view of the function of each of our bodies that is more useful and accurate than the closed unitary self/not self container view that most of us grew up with.

ASM search results on this topic put the lie to any suggestion that some conspiracy of big pharma owned scientists is (pick one or more) [suppressing the truth | avoiding research into the gut microbiome | silencing the good work of pioneers like the GAPS researchers ]
ASM search results

This picture of the vital role that the symbiotic communities in our guts play with the functioning of the rest of our bodies, combined with the complex picture of epigenomics and endophenotypes that is emerging from human genetic research, makes the probability of any one "cure" for a phenomenon like ASD seem vanishingly small.

What we have in autism is almost certainly the result of complex gene environment interactions, the cummulative impact of many alleles which each contribute only a small effect and many complex environmental interactions. Many of those interactions will be revealed to prenatal, the result of interactions in early fetal development, as there seems to be some evidence of prenatal ultrasound measurements showing different growth rates in the developing brains of autistic people at about 20 weeks.

Research is moving very rapidly (increase in power and drop in costs for genotyping is significantly outperforming Moore's law, for example) on all these fronts and we can expect much better answers to emerge as a result.



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30 Jun 2014, 6:36 pm

Janissy wrote:
[But it did. The Gluten Free Casein Free diet for autism has been a fringe staple since the early 90's (first proposed in 1991 according to wiki). This microbiome theory is giving a possible mechanism for that diet. So the "autism comes from the gut" meme has been in place in the parent-driven fringe for 20 years.


It has been around for 20+ years on the fringes but it was not gaining currency. Until Autism Speaks involvement it had been lost a lot of currency due to guilt by association with Wakefield.

KC73 wrote:

Yep, and the FODMAP and GAPS diets are being recommended by medical specialists for other genetic conditions that have a high comorbidity with spectum diagnoses. Like I said earlier, this gut-brain research is not exclusive to the autism community, and its got further in other sectors because in other sectors the focus is on improving patients health and wellbeing rather than a battle between people who want to "cure" and eradicate autism and those who want to protect the identity no matter what the personal cost. People who arent up to date with all this can argue that its fringe and without merit, but that doesnt make it true.



Personal observation: Bolding by me. The "identity" and "I want the diagnoses" ideas are new so the backlash against it is to be expected. And I do understand the negative reaction by LFA. What has taken me by surprise is how people seem to be personally annoyed and offended by the concept. Feeling good and not bad about oneself is a proven treatment to a lot of things.

As for big pharma I am sure the brain trust at these companies are trying to figure how to take control of this as we speak. The anti gut bacteria diets will remain fringe, If this is the cure or a significant treatment it will be administered by pill or ironically vaccine. This is how it always seems to happen with change. Companies industry yell, scream, lobby against it then figure out how to control it.


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30 Jun 2014, 7:45 pm

Shadi2 wrote:
He doesn't have digestive imbalance.


How do you know that?

Colonoscopy? Stool samples cultured in a lab?


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01 Jul 2014, 6:03 am

Routine ultrasound may detect autism in utero

Modification of the gut biome won't impact all aspects of every ASD, but it may well play an important role for some



Mugen
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01 Jul 2014, 6:51 am

I discovered this myself before I knew I had autism. I thought I had a candida overgrowth in my gut (I may or may not have, it is unclear) and went on an elimination diet as a part of treating myself. The diet was strict but I felt MILES better... I no longer felt ill in the morning, my brain fog eased up majorly, I was able to get out of bed and do things to look after myself that I could not before, like cleaning my mess for the first time in months, having a shower etc. My depression and depersonalisation eased up a lot too, I gained some motivation to move forward in life... Upon reintroducing foods I noticed that gluten and dairy both made my symptoms come back strong. I tested lactose-free milk, I still had a bad reaction. I tested a whey protein isolate powder, I had no negative reaction... From this I concluded that casein was my problem with dairy.

Later I started making coconut milk kefir for it's probiotic content, also to help with the candida overgrowth I may have had... And something I had not expected happened. My head felt clearer and my depersonalisation disappeared almost entirely, I still could not usually make eye contact with people while I spoke to them but I now made eye contact with them automatically while listening. I became even less depressed, my brain fog let up even more and became very manageable.

After learning I had autism suddenly all of this clicked into place and I understood why these changes had such an effect. I am now making sure I get the recommended amounts of vitamins and minerals it is recommended people consume daily and incorporating exercise and it is doing amazing things for my wellbeing. I would encourage anyone to experiment - this is not about "curing" or "fixing" your autism, it will still be there... it's about being able to better manage negative symptoms and improving your quality of life.



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06 Jul 2014, 3:00 pm

Here's a link w/ a youtube video explaining what a coffee enema actually does to detoxify the body & in particularly the liver:

http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/dr-vicke ... ng-cancer/


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06 Jul 2014, 4:56 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Here's a link w/ a youtube video explaining what a coffee enema actually does to detoxify the body & in particularly the liver:

http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/dr-vicke ... ng-cancer/


He says it's because the coffee enema increases the production of glutathione transferase. But so does just drinking coffee.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 429.x/full

that's a link to a study showing that drinking coffee increases production of glutathione transferase. So apparently from whichever orifice the coffee enters, it can increase production of glutathione transferase. I'll stick to drinking it.



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06 Jul 2014, 7:49 pm

Janissy wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Here's a link w/ a youtube video explaining what a coffee enema actually does to detoxify the body & in particularly the liver:

http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/dr-vicke ... ng-cancer/


He says it's because the coffee enema increases the production of glutathione transferase. But so does just drinking coffee.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 429.x/full

that's a link to a study showing that drinking coffee increases production of glutathione transferase. So apparently from whichever orifice the coffee enters, it can increase production of glutathione transferase. I'll stick to drinking it.


Iirc, the doc in the vid said that glutathione transferase is increased many times more via enema than ingestion.

And as a personal anecdote, as someone who used to drink a lot of coffee back when I drank coffee (up to 4-5 pots a day back about 12 or so years ago) and has done the coffee enema thing.. I can tell you that I feel a whole lot better after the latter than the former, especially since the caffeine effects from drinking that much coffee are not so good. Also as they pointed out in that video.. the amount you'd have to drink to get the same detox effect would be quite unhealthy for you.


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07 Jul 2014, 11:52 pm

FWIW, there was an article in the Economist a while ago about the microbiome. In it was discussion of clostridium difficile, which they allege produces an acid that the body removes with an enzyme that depends on sulfur. The suggestion was that a high level of the bug could deplete the body's supply of sulfur and that that would harm nervous development.

I have no idea, and I wasn't able to find papers elaborating on that. I do know that the Economist has been surprisingly good at reporting engineering news, so they may have savvy sources in medicine as well.

The only thing that I can personally say for the theory is that I feel better after eating foods that have very little dietary value, but do have high sulfur content. (Onions, garlic and a few others.) That isn't placebo, since I'd noticed before I read the article. I also felt worse when I became a vegetarian, and meats are one of the main sources of sulfur. All of this could be a complete illusion, but it's easy, cheap and (I assume) safe to try.



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08 Jul 2014, 10:26 am

Mugen wrote:
I discovered this myself before I knew I had autism. I thought I had a candida overgrowth in my gut

You didn't. Only the severely immunocompromised (mostly those with AIDS) will have a candida overgrowth. If you did, then it would be the least of your worries because you'd be constantly be near-death from routine infections.

Put candida in a box with "detox", "naturopath", "vaccine injury" and "natural food", and run away when someone starts talking about them as serious concepts.