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TheGoggles
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11 Jul 2014, 10:48 am

Kurgan wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:

The [S]anti-semites[/S] [sic] anti-zionists who do not live in countries where terrorist attacks are frequent.


Look at my location. :roll:


I rest my case. IRA or similar groups aren't nearly as bad as Hamas, and to top it off, your country is three times the size of Israel. To be fair, it probably would be more violent if all the hollier-than-thou hypocrites started shouting "boycott Great Britain" and didn't want the British government to defend itself against terrorism.


MY TRAGEDY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOURS.

Still keeping up that brilliant posting, I see.



Kurgan
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12 Jul 2014, 6:28 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:

The [S]anti-semites[/S] [sic] anti-zionists who do not live in countries where terrorist attacks are frequent.


Look at my location. :roll:


I rest my case. IRA or similar groups aren't nearly as bad as Hamas, and to top it off, your country is three times the size of Israel. To be fair, it probably would be more violent if all the hollier-than-thou hypocrites started shouting "boycott Great Britain" and didn't want the British government to defend itself against terrorism.

Palestinian suicide bombers killed 804 people between 1989 and 2008 (42 a year). A further 64 were killed by rocket strikes between 2001 and 2012, though the death toll would be higher if not for incompetence.

The IRA killed 1609 between 1969 and 1997 (57 a year).

Your "three times the size" comment makes little sense too. Northern Ireland has a population of less than 2m, whereas Israel is over 7m. The whole of Britain is well over 3 times the population size of Israel. It also does not fit with area.


People killed by the IRA in terrorist attacks since 2000: 0 (the IRA targets property rather than people these days)
People killed by Hamas suicide bombers between 2001 and 2006: 614

I agree that the Israeli military has gone too far, but the wall has to stay. There are hundreds of thousands of Arabs living peacefully in Israeli territories. If Israel was an Apartheid state, they would have been kicked out.


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chris5000
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12 Jul 2014, 9:38 am

Kurgan wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:

The [S]anti-semites[/S] [sic] anti-zionists who do not live in countries where terrorist attacks are frequent.


Look at my location. :roll:


I rest my case. IRA or similar groups aren't nearly as bad as Hamas, and to top it off, your country is three times the size of Israel. To be fair, it probably would be more violent if all the hollier-than-thou hypocrites started shouting "boycott Great Britain" and didn't want the British government to defend itself against terrorism.

Palestinian suicide bombers killed 804 people between 1989 and 2008 (42 a year). A further 64 were killed by rocket strikes between 2001 and 2012, though the death toll would be higher if not for incompetence.

The IRA killed 1609 between 1969 and 1997 (57 a year).

Your "three times the size" comment makes little sense too. Northern Ireland has a population of less than 2m, whereas Israel is over 7m. The whole of Britain is well over 3 times the population size of Israel. It also does not fit with area.


People killed by the IRA in terrorist attacks since 2000: 0 (the IRA targets property rather than people these days)
People killed by Hamas suicide bombers between 2001 and 2006: 614

I agree that the Israeli military has gone too far, but the wall has to stay. There are hundreds of thousands of Arabs living peacefully in Israeli territories. If Israel was an Apartheid state, they would have been kicked out.

yeah they should of kept the Berlin wall up to keep those dirty terrorist out in fact lets build a new one



Kurgan
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12 Jul 2014, 10:29 am

chris5000 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:

The [S]anti-semites[/S] [sic] anti-zionists who do not live in countries where terrorist attacks are frequent.


Look at my location. :roll:


I rest my case. IRA or similar groups aren't nearly as bad as Hamas, and to top it off, your country is three times the size of Israel. To be fair, it probably would be more violent if all the hollier-than-thou hypocrites started shouting "boycott Great Britain" and didn't want the British government to defend itself against terrorism.

Palestinian suicide bombers killed 804 people between 1989 and 2008 (42 a year). A further 64 were killed by rocket strikes between 2001 and 2012, though the death toll would be higher if not for incompetence.

The IRA killed 1609 between 1969 and 1997 (57 a year).

Your "three times the size" comment makes little sense too. Northern Ireland has a population of less than 2m, whereas Israel is over 7m. The whole of Britain is well over 3 times the population size of Israel. It also does not fit with area.


People killed by the IRA in terrorist attacks since 2000: 0 (the IRA targets property rather than people these days)
People killed by Hamas suicide bombers between 2001 and 2006: 614

I agree that the Israeli military has gone too far, but the wall has to stay. There are hundreds of thousands of Arabs living peacefully in Israeli territories. If Israel was an Apartheid state, they would have been kicked out.

yeah they should of kept the Berlin wall up to keep those dirty terrorist out in fact lets build a new one


False analogy. DDR built the wall to prevent people from escaping; Israel built the wall to prevent suicide bombers. How many has been killed by suicide bombers in Israel during the past five years, again?


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12 Jul 2014, 10:33 am

The Iron Dome missile shield has also been pretty effective. It's sad it's neccessary but if people were attacking my hometown I'd want a missile shield and a wall too.



Ann2011
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12 Jul 2014, 10:54 am

There's nothing wrong with the Jewish people wanting their homeland. I don't understand it as I really don't have a homeland, but I get that it's important to them. And they wouldn't have been in such a pickle if it weren't for the Europeans chasing them out during the Holocaust. But it is not cool to remove people from their homes so that another group can have the land. According to this logic, a Mohawk Indian has the right to kick me out of my apartment. Past wrongs are not righted with new ones.
However, the Israelis are not going to back down until the Palestinians are gone. It's a shame that the lifestyle of the nomadic Arabs is unworkable now. Especially in a place that is so populated and desired. But such is life.
The atrocities on both sides are going to continue, how can they not. Both sides are in the position of fighting for their homes.



thomas81
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12 Jul 2014, 12:12 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the Jewish people wanting their homeland. I don't understand it as I really don't have a homeland, but I get that it's important to them. And they wouldn't have been in such a pickle if it weren't for the Europeans chasing them out during the Holocaust. But it is not cool to remove people from their homes so that another group can have the land. According to this logic, a Mohawk Indian has the right to kick me out of my apartment. Past wrongs are not righted with new ones.
However, the Israelis are not going to back down until the Palestinians are gone. It's a shame that the lifestyle of the nomadic Arabs is unworkable now. Especially in a place that is so populated and desired. But such is life.
The atrocities on both sides are going to continue, how can they not. Both sides are in the position of fighting for their homes.


They wouldn't have been nomadic in the first place, if the Israelis hadn't fored them out during the nakba. The arabs living in the area when the first wave of Israelis came weren't just 'passing through' they and their ancestors had been there for generations and did not have any claim to reside in Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Lebanon. They were Palestinian, and that area had been called Palestine since biblical times, in spite of what Israel's supporters claim.


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Ann2011
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12 Jul 2014, 1:15 pm

thomas81 wrote:
They wouldn't have been nomadic in the first place, if the Israelis hadn't fored them out during the nakba. The arabs living in the area when the first wave of Israelis came weren't just 'passing through' they and their ancestors had been there for generations and did not have any claim to reside in Egypt, Syria, Jordan or Lebanon. They were Palestinian, and that area had been called Palestine since biblical times, in spite of what Israel's supporters claim.


Yes, it is disingenuous for the Israelis to claim otherwise. I wish the Zionists would be more honest about what they are doing to another culture, instead of trying to argue their justification. I get it .. the land is desireable and they want it and they are taking it. Nothing new there, but don't pretend it is not an invasion. Israel should take over what's left of Palestine and get it over with. It's not like western nations are going to care.



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12 Jul 2014, 1:31 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
Israel should take over what's left of Palestine and get it over with. It's not like western nations are going to care.


No they shouldn't, and Palestinian advocates must do all they can to economically and politically frustrate Israel's attempts to annex the remainder of Gaza and West Bank. This has got nothing to do with Islam, Judaism or anti semitism. What sort of message does the precedence of Israel send to other tyrants that might try to genocide other countries on the back of similar pretences?


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12 Jul 2014, 1:37 pm

thomas81 wrote:
No they shouldn't, and Palestinian advocates must do all they can to economically and politically frustrate Israel's attempts to annex the remainder of Gaza and West Bank. This has got nothing to do with Islam, Judaism or anti semitism. What sort of message does the precedence of Israel send to other tyrants that might try to genocide other countries on the back of similar pretences?

Palestine cannot win this.
The message sent - the same message that I see everyday in everyone. Resistance is futile.



thomas81
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12 Jul 2014, 1:46 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
No they shouldn't, and Palestinian advocates must do all they can to economically and politically frustrate Israel's attempts to annex the remainder of Gaza and West Bank. This has got nothing to do with Islam, Judaism or anti semitism. What sort of message does the precedence of Israel send to other tyrants that might try to genocide other countries on the back of similar pretences?

Palestine cannot win this.
The message sent - the same message that I see everyday in everyone. Resistance is futile.


thats not the point. The point is what message it sends to other would be land theives that might use this example to seize lands on similar pretences.

It shouldnt be about 'winning' or 'losing'. At this juncture something along the lines of a UN peacekeeping force needs to go to the area to replace Israeli forces, to facilitate a amicable deconstruction of illegal Israeli settlements and to enforce as a matter of urgency, a dual state arrangement.


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The_Walrus
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12 Jul 2014, 5:36 pm

Kurgan wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:

The [S]anti-semites[/S] [sic] anti-zionists who do not live in countries where terrorist attacks are frequent.


Look at my location. :roll:


I rest my case. IRA or similar groups aren't nearly as bad as Hamas, and to top it off, your country is three times the size of Israel. To be fair, it probably would be more violent if all the hollier-than-thou hypocrites started shouting "boycott Great Britain" and didn't want the British government to defend itself against terrorism.

Palestinian suicide bombers killed 804 people between 1989 and 2008 (42 a year). A further 64 were killed by rocket strikes between 2001 and 2012, though the death toll would be higher if not for incompetence.

The IRA killed 1609 between 1969 and 1997 (57 a year).

Your "three times the size" comment makes little sense too. Northern Ireland has a population of less than 2m, whereas Israel is over 7m. The whole of Britain is well over 3 times the population size of Israel. It also does not fit with area.


People killed by the IRA in terrorist attacks since 2000: 0 (the IRA targets property rather than people these days)
People killed by Hamas suicide bombers between 2001 and 2006: 614

OK, we're having a tense (temporal) issue.

Thomas has lived in a country where terrorist attacks were common. I don't think you can accuse him of being disconnected from that reality. If you were addressing that claim at me (I can't remember The Troubles, and anyway have not lived in Northern Ireland) then you would be justified, but I like to think I don't have a dog in this fight.



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13 Jul 2014, 7:27 am

Ann2011 wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
No they shouldn't, and Palestinian advocates must do all they can to economically and politically frustrate Israel's attempts to annex the remainder of Gaza and West Bank. This has got nothing to do with Islam, Judaism or anti semitism. What sort of message does the precedence of Israel send to other tyrants that might try to genocide other countries on the back of similar pretences?

Palestine cannot win this.
The message sent - the same message that I see everyday in everyone. Resistance is futile.


This reminds me a bit of the intro of the Gladiator movie from years ago. A Roman legion asks the locals to surrender but they send back the messenger without his head and their leader shouts some insult at them. Then goes the conversation between the general and an officer:

Quintus: People should know when they are conquered.
Maximus: Would you, Quintus? Would I?



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13 Jul 2014, 9:01 am

a poem by the late IRA activist, Bobby Sands.


The Rythm of Time
"There?s an inner thing in every man,
Do you know this thing my friend?
It has withstood the blows of a million years,
And will do so to the end.

It was born when time did not exist,
And it grew up out of life,
It cut down evil?s strangling vines,
Like a slashing searing knife.

It lit fires when fires were not,
And burnt the mind of man,
Tempering leandened hearts to steel,
From the time that time began.

It wept by the waters of Babylon,
And when all men were a loss,
It screeched in writhing agony,
And it hung bleeding from the Cross.

It died in Rome by lion and sword,
And in defiant cruel array,
When the deathly word was ?Spartacus?
Along with Appian Way.

It marched with Wat the Tyler?s poor,
And frightened lord and king,
And it was emblazoned in their deathly stare,
As e?er a living thing.

It smiled in holy innocence,
Before conquistadors of old,
So meek and tame and unaware,
Of the deathly power of gold.

It burst forth through pitiful Paris streets,
And stormed the old Bastille,
And marched upon the serpent?s head,
And crushed it ?neath its heel.

It died in blood on Buffalo Plains,
And starved by moons of rain,
Its heart was buried in Wounded Knee,
But it will come to rise again.

It screamed aloud by Kerry lakes,
As it was knelt upon the ground,
And it died in great defiance,
As they coldly shot it down.

It is found in every light of hope,
It knows no bounds nor space
It has risen in red and black and white,
It is there in every race.

It lies in the hearts of heroes dead,
It screams in tyrants? eyes,
It has reached the peak of mountains high,
It comes searing ?cross the skies.

It lights the dark of this prison cell,
It thunders forth its might,
It is ?the undauntable thought?, my friend,
That thought that says ?I?m right!?


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Ann2011
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13 Jul 2014, 11:08 am

trollcatman wrote:
Quintus: People should know when they are conquered.
Maximus: Would you, Quintus? Would I?


True. It's just such a painful process.



chris5000
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13 Jul 2014, 1:22 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
No they shouldn't, and Palestinian advocates must do all they can to economically and politically frustrate Israel's attempts to annex the remainder of Gaza and West Bank. This has got nothing to do with Islam, Judaism or anti semitism. What sort of message does the precedence of Israel send to other tyrants that might try to genocide other countries on the back of similar pretences?

Palestine cannot win this.
The message sent - the same message that I see everyday in everyone. Resistance is futile.

insurgent forces always win just look at the united states track record of fighting insurgency look at great britain's too