Malaysian plane shot down over Ukraine.

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Jacoby
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21 Jul 2014, 1:11 pm

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plan ... a-ukraine/

Russia has released evidence of an Ukrainian Su-25 in close vicinity to MH17 at the time of the shoot down

now the US should release some actually evidence that it claims to have



Kraichgauer
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21 Jul 2014, 1:22 pm

Former CIA operative and CNN contributor Bob Baer has just said the Russian explanation is a load of crap, and that the plane was most likely shot down by Russian forces who had crossed over into Ukraine. He believes the Russians had been making the first of many illegal border crossings, as was formerly seen in the Crimea, when the plane had been shot down.


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Jacoby
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21 Jul 2014, 1:53 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Former CIA operative and CNN contributor Bob Baer has just said the Russian explanation is a load of crap, and that the plane was most likely shot down by Russian forces who had crossed over into Ukraine. He believes the Russians had been making the first of many illegal border crossings, as was formerly seen in the Crimea, when the plane had been shot down.


and what is his proof of this?

it doesn't seem very logical for the Russians to have shot down a civilian airliner, how would that benefit them at all?



Kraichgauer
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21 Jul 2014, 2:36 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Former CIA operative and CNN contributor Bob Baer has just said the Russian explanation is a load of crap, and that the plane was most likely shot down by Russian forces who had crossed over into Ukraine. He believes the Russians had been making the first of many illegal border crossings, as was formerly seen in the Crimea, when the plane had been shot down.


and what is his proof of this?

it doesn't seem very logical for the Russians to have shot down a civilian airliner, how would that benefit them at all?


It almost certainly was done accidentally. But Putin wants to hide the fact that the perpetrators are actually working directly for him, performing illegal actions.


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Jacoby
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21 Jul 2014, 3:36 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Former CIA operative and CNN contributor Bob Baer has just said the Russian explanation is a load of crap, and that the plane was most likely shot down by Russian forces who had crossed over into Ukraine. He believes the Russians had been making the first of many illegal border crossings, as was formerly seen in the Crimea, when the plane had been shot down.


and what is his proof of this?

it doesn't seem very logical for the Russians to have shot down a civilian airliner, how would that benefit them at all?


It almost certainly was done accidentally. But Putin wants to hide the fact that the perpetrators are actually working directly for him, performing illegal actions.


The US claims to have satellite evidence that the airliner would was shot down with ground-to-air missile from a BUK launcher which I would agree could not be operated by these separatists but if they actually have this evidence then why don't they release it publicly? The Russians have released their evidence that a Su-25 fighter was near the MH17 when the Ukrainians claim that there was no military aircraft in the area at the time, a Su-25 is equipped with air-to-air missiles capable of taking down a Boeing 777 although it wouldn't be the aircraft you'd send to intentionally do that. The Ukrainian coup regime and their allies have just as much reason to lie as the separatists and the Russians, I want concrete proof before pointing blame.



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21 Jul 2014, 7:39 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Former CIA operative and CNN contributor Bob Baer has just said the Russian explanation is a load of crap, and that the plane was most likely shot down by Russian forces who had crossed over into Ukraine. He believes the Russians had been making the first of many illegal border crossings, as was formerly seen in the Crimea, when the plane had been shot down.


and what is his proof of this?

it doesn't seem very logical for the Russians to have shot down a civilian airliner, how would that benefit them at all?


It almost certainly was done accidentally. But Putin wants to hide the fact that the perpetrators are actually working directly for him, performing illegal actions.


The US claims to have satellite evidence that the airliner would was shot down with ground-to-air missile from a BUK launcher which I would agree could not be operated by these separatists but if they actually have this evidence then why don't they release it publicly? The Russians have released their evidence that a Su-25 fighter was near the MH17 when the Ukrainians claim that there was no military aircraft in the area at the time, a Su-25 is equipped with air-to-air missiles capable of taking down a Boeing 777 although it wouldn't be the aircraft you'd send to intentionally do that. The Ukrainian coup regime and their allies have just as much reason to lie as the separatists and the Russians, I want concrete proof before pointing blame.


The Russian separatists are preventing the Ukrainian government from investigating the scene, while Putin is removing the bodies as quickly as possible. Those actions speak of consciousness of guilt.


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Jacoby
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21 Jul 2014, 8:11 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Former CIA operative and CNN contributor Bob Baer has just said the Russian explanation is a load of crap, and that the plane was most likely shot down by Russian forces who had crossed over into Ukraine. He believes the Russians had been making the first of many illegal border crossings, as was formerly seen in the Crimea, when the plane had been shot down.


and what is his proof of this?

it doesn't seem very logical for the Russians to have shot down a civilian airliner, how would that benefit them at all?


It almost certainly was done accidentally. But Putin wants to hide the fact that the perpetrators are actually working directly for him, performing illegal actions.


The US claims to have satellite evidence that the airliner would was shot down with ground-to-air missile from a BUK launcher which I would agree could not be operated by these separatists but if they actually have this evidence then why don't they release it publicly? The Russians have released their evidence that a Su-25 fighter was near the MH17 when the Ukrainians claim that there was no military aircraft in the area at the time, a Su-25 is equipped with air-to-air missiles capable of taking down a Boeing 777 although it wouldn't be the aircraft you'd send to intentionally do that. The Ukrainian coup regime and their allies have just as much reason to lie as the separatists and the Russians, I want concrete proof before pointing blame.


The Russian separatists are preventing the Ukrainian government from investigating the scene, while Putin is removing the bodies as quickly as possible. Those actions speak of consciousness of guilt.


Well obviously they wouldn't cooperate with the Ukrainian government that they don't find legitimate but the reports about the bodies and some cover up was just propaganda. They released the bodies and turned over the black boxes to Dutch and Malaysian authorities today actually. The Dutch team actually said that they were impressed with the work recovery crews had done in spite the conditions and that the bodies were in good condition.



cyberdad
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21 Jul 2014, 8:36 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
The Russian separatists are preventing the Ukrainian government from investigating the scene, while Putin is removing the bodies as quickly as possible. Those actions speak of consciousness of guilt.

Technically they are Ukrainian separatists as they are Ukrainian citizens wanting to separate from Ukraine. They are made up of Russian refugees from Stalin who were settled back in the 1950s but also bilingual Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine.This conflict is largely a internal matter between Ukraine and Russia to sort out.
The whole of the region is a war zone and it's quite laughable that there was ever any "safe" flight path" for MH17 to take. Air traffic authorities knew the entire region was a "high risk" but did not restrict commercial flights. Rather they warned airlines but left the final decision at the discretion of individual airlines.

While the majority of commercial airlines avoided Ukraine altogether since about April 2014; Malaysian airlines flight MH17 (along with a few other carriers including Singapore airlines) made a deliberate decision to save fuel and cut through the war zone. For them the commercial profit of the airlines was more important than the safety of the passengers/crew.

The Malaysian government maybe claiming that they did nothing wrong in terms of their flight path breaching international regulations, however given the prior intelligence they received over possible risks they still persisted with flight path on the basis they had taken this path over a number of years previously. I think the families of the deceased have a case against Malaysian airlines and the airlines fairly obviously put the passengers at risk to cut corners.



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22 Jul 2014, 12:21 am

Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Former CIA operative and CNN contributor Bob Baer has just said the Russian explanation is a load of crap, and that the plane was most likely shot down by Russian forces who had crossed over into Ukraine. He believes the Russians had been making the first of many illegal border crossings, as was formerly seen in the Crimea, when the plane had been shot down.


and what is his proof of this?

it doesn't seem very logical for the Russians to have shot down a civilian airliner, how would that benefit them at all?


It almost certainly was done accidentally. But Putin wants to hide the fact that the perpetrators are actually working directly for him, performing illegal actions.


The US claims to have satellite evidence that the airliner would was shot down with ground-to-air missile from a BUK launcher which I would agree could not be operated by these separatists but if they actually have this evidence then why don't they release it publicly? The Russians have released their evidence that a Su-25 fighter was near the MH17 when the Ukrainians claim that there was no military aircraft in the area at the time, a Su-25 is equipped with air-to-air missiles capable of taking down a Boeing 777 although it wouldn't be the aircraft you'd send to intentionally do that. The Ukrainian coup regime and their allies have just as much reason to lie as the separatists and the Russians, I want concrete proof before pointing blame.


The Russian separatists are preventing the Ukrainian government from investigating the scene, while Putin is removing the bodies as quickly as possible. Those actions speak of consciousness of guilt.


Well obviously they wouldn't cooperate with the Ukrainian government that they don't find legitimate but the reports about the bodies and some cover up was just propaganda. They released the bodies and turned over the black boxes to Dutch and Malaysian authorities today actually. The Dutch team actually said that they were impressed with the work recovery crews had done in spite the conditions and that the bodies were in good condition.


I concede that is true. But it was the rebel's own obfuscation that led to the world questioning their motives.


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Jacoby
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22 Jul 2014, 9:38 pm

US intelligence now saying 'there is no evidence of direct Russian involvement'



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22 Jul 2014, 10:35 pm

Jacoby wrote:
http://rt.com/


Uhhhhhh.



Kraichgauer
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22 Jul 2014, 11:22 pm

Jacoby wrote:
US intelligence now saying 'there is no evidence of direct Russian involvement'


That's what I hear. If that's true, then all this misunderstanding could have been cleared up if the Russians and their rebel allies had been more open and honest at the start.


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ripped
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23 Jul 2014, 12:05 am

It boils down to who supplied the SAM launcher.
If it was Russia, that's Russian involvement.
If it was looted from a Ukrainian arms depot, that puts some onus on the Ukrainian government. Not the same as supplying one, but that capability in rebel hands needed to be reported.



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23 Jul 2014, 3:08 am

What a surprise. The U.S MSM are saying the Russians are responsible, and Russia Today is saying they aren't :roll:



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