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Malaysian plane shot down over Ukraine.

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TheGoggles
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17 Jul 2014, 11:20 am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/1 ... 95516.html

Oh boy, this won't end well.



trollcatman
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17 Jul 2014, 12:10 pm

I'm not getting on any Malaysian airplanes anytime soon.
Who in their right mind would shoot down a civilian airplane? I can't think of any good reason except wanting to escalate the conflict even more.



TallyMan
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17 Jul 2014, 12:20 pm

Everyone is denying responsibility for the moment. Someone certainly had their sticky finger on the trigger though. They should be dragged before the courts in Malaysia and charged with 295 murders.


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Dantac
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17 Jul 2014, 12:23 pm

The plane was at 22k feet. Weapon systems to reach that high can only come from a fighter aircraft or a military air defense system.

So, it was either the Russian military shooting it down with a fighter or their own land to air missiles (either from their side of the border or fired from one such air defense system operated by Russian soldiers inside rebel-held territory..aka Russia supporting the Rebels this way)....

or it was the Ukraine military shooting it down with a fighter or an air defense system.

A rebel force can't really use such systems (or the staff to use and maintain) in inventory....they rely on shoulder launched and small mobile systems. A missile that gets up to 22k is not small...it needs radar input of some form plus fires a fairly large missile.

It's either going to get ugly or its going to end up buried in UN politicized 'investigators' that will take longer than this conflict will last to figure out who did it.



MrGrumpy
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17 Jul 2014, 12:35 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Everyone is denying responsibility for the moment. Someone certainly had their sticky finger on the trigger though. They should be dragged before the courts in Malaysia and charged with 295 murders.

It is of course possible that the shot was fired by amateurs who did not understand what they were doing. It is also possible that the plane was sabotaged from within - so far, we do not know.

I have been saying for some time that the world, especially Europe, is as unstable now as it was 100 years ago. Europe has not recovered from the crash of 2007/8, and the European Union, which was invented specifically in order to make intra-European conflict impossible, is under considerable stress. Here in the UK, the BBC is running a major theme to mark the 100th anniversary of the start of WW1, and it begins with the assassination in Sarajevo of some Austro-Hungarian nobleman.

The loss of this Malaysian airliner is quite capable of sparking a 21st century inferno - let's hope it doesn't happen.



Jacoby
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17 Jul 2014, 1:16 pm

There is no way this is the work of the separatists

It seems like whoever is responsible it will be blamed on the Russians



trollcatman
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17 Jul 2014, 1:25 pm

I just cannot imagine what anyone would gain by doing this. I know people will do horrible things to achieve their goals, but I can't see any point in this.



Jacoby
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17 Jul 2014, 1:40 pm

trollcatman wrote:
I just cannot imagine what anyone would gain by doing this. I know people will do horrible things to achieve their goals, but I can't see any point in this.


Well I think you have to assume it was an accident and that it wasn't deliberately targeted knowing it was a civilian aircraft.

If it was deliberate then Ukraine definitely seemed to be in position to gain from this if this brings down more sanctions on Russia, more military aid, or even intervention in eastern Ukraine. Reminds me of the rush to blame the chemical attack in Syria on government forces when it made zero strategic sense for them to do it.



trollcatman
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17 Jul 2014, 2:03 pm

According to wikipedia they know the nationality of some of the victims:

Dutch: 71
American: 23
French: 4+
Total: 295



Ann2011
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17 Jul 2014, 4:10 pm

They're saying it was shot down, I'm sure deliberately, but why? But it's a bad scene anyway. Everything seems to be boiling over.



trollcatman
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17 Jul 2014, 4:29 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
They're saying it was shot down, I'm sure deliberately, but why? But it's a bad scene anyway. Everything seems to be boiling over.


I just saw this on the news: there is taped phone conversation between two Russian rebel commanders, and it went more or less like this: "O crap, we just shot down a civilian plane, crap". It could have been a horrible accident. On the news they listed a few similar cases in the past, a Korean plane shot down by the Soviets and an an Iranian plane shot down by an American warship.



Ann2011
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17 Jul 2014, 4:33 pm

trollcatman wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
They're saying it was shot down, I'm sure deliberately, but why? But it's a bad scene anyway. Everything seems to be boiling over.


I just saw this on the news: there is taped phone conversation between two Russian rebel commanders, and it went more or less like this: "O crap, we just shot down a civilian plane, crap". It could have been a horrible accident. On the news they listed a few similar cases in the past, a Korean plane shot down by the Soviets and an an Iranian plane shot down by an American warship.


Heck of a bad day.



KB8CWB
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17 Jul 2014, 4:57 pm

trollcatman wrote:
I just cannot imagine what anyone would gain by doing this. I know people will do horrible things to achieve their goals, but I can't see any point in this.


Wouldn't surprise me if this is a false-flag event (Read CIA) to blame Russia and get us involved.



chris5000
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17 Jul 2014, 6:16 pm

Jacoby wrote:
There is no way this is the work of the separatists

It seems like whoever is responsible it will be blamed on the Russians

the separatists just got some shiny new manpads this week



Sigbold
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17 Jul 2014, 6:25 pm

KB8CWB wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
I just cannot imagine what anyone would gain by doing this. I know people will do horrible things to achieve their goals, but I can't see any point in this.


Wouldn't surprise me if this is a false-flag event (Read CIA) to blame Russia and get us involved.


There have been some claimed intercepted recordings released that seems to suggest that separatists shot down the plane. And later found out it was a civilian plane. And one question does seem to suggest that they thought it was a weapon transport at first.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 56545.html



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17 Jul 2014, 9:15 pm

Dantac wrote:
The plane was at 22k feet. Weapon systems to reach that high can only come from a fighter aircraft or a military air defense system.

So, it was either the Russian military shooting it down with a fighter or their own land to air missiles (either from their side of the border or fired from one such air defense system operated by Russian soldiers inside rebel-held territory..aka Russia supporting the Rebels this way)....

or it was the Ukraine military shooting it down with a fighter or an air defense system.

A rebel force can't really use such systems (or the staff to use and maintain) in inventory....they rely on shoulder launched and small mobile systems. A missile that gets up to 22k is not small...it needs radar input of some form plus fires a fairly large missile.

It's either going to get ugly or its going to end up buried in UN politicized 'investigators' that will take longer than this conflict will last to figure out who did it.


It was flying at 33,000 feet, only 1,000 feet above the restricted area.
It seems like it was shot down by the Buk operated by the pro-Russian rebels

Quote:
On Thursday, an Associated Press reporter reported seeing a Buk in the east Ukrainian town of Snizhne.

Pro-Russian rebels the Donetsk People's Republic have taken control of a military base with Buk systems. But they are useless without specialist knowledge. Jonathan Eyal, director of the Royal United Services Institute, said it was not a matter of climbing aboard a van and pressing a button. Firing a missile requires knowledge of how to use radar, how to lock on to a target and a host of other steps beyond the average rebel.

"If the plane was shot down, it could only have been shot down by a state authority," Eyal said, suggesting either Russia or Ukraine, or by a group in Ukraine helped by Russia. On balance, he said he thought the blame rested with Russia.

The Buk, he said, "definitely has the range and is mobile and could be fired by Russians or Russian separatists.

"It amounts to a massive, massive escalation," Eyal said. "The only country that has a persistent policy of trying to prevent Ukrainians controlling airspace is Russia. Russia has taken an interest in shooting down aircraft and forcing Ukraine to use ground troops."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... uk-missile