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Humanaut
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10 Aug 2014, 11:03 pm

eric76 wrote:
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Total victory is probably the only thing that could bring peace


I think that the only thing that could bring peace is for all sides to get so sick of war that peace seems to be the best option.

You only have to break the will of the aggressor.



The_Face_of_Boo
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11 Aug 2014, 2:32 am

Tarantella, go check the internet, there are so many many sources of pro Israel, not necessarily religious, who try hard to prove that Palestinians are Arab newcomers to this land, thro history anaylsis rather than genetic, and therefore aren't much native for this land.

But such genetic studies do prove them wrong and prove that Palestinians aren't just Arabs, but are mixture of ancient peoples who lived on this land, Canaanites being the most ancient one.
Arabism was simply the most recent linguistic (and bit genetic) layer.
It's the same case of Lebanese/Syrians; hell our spoken dialect is about 40% Syriac.
But hey, it's not all that bad for you, those studies also strongly indicate that jews are our relatives too; so that prove wrong for those who deny that.

My previous post was a response to the youtube video as well; there's no point in Canaan history where a whole population was totally wiped out and replaced by newcomers and their DNA proves that they are continuum of ancient peoples.


I am talking facts, not conspiracies, so stop belittling my posts.



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 11 Aug 2014, 4:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

0_equals_true
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11 Aug 2014, 3:44 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Tarantella, go check the internet, there are so many many sources of pro Israel, not necessarily religious, who try hard to prove that Palestinians are Arab newcomers to this land, thro history anaylsis rather than genetic, and therefore aren't much native for this land.

But such genetic studies do prove them wrong and prove that Palestinians aren't just Arabs, but are mixture of ancient peoples who lived on this land, Canaanites being the most ancient one.
Arabism was simply the most recent linguistic (and bit genetic) layer.
It's the same case of Lebanese/Syrians; hell our spoken dialect is about 40% Syriac.
But hey, it's not all that bad for you, those studies also strongly indicate that jews are our relatives too; so that prove wrong for those who deny that.

My previous post was a response to the youtube video as well; there's no point of Canaan history where a whole population was totally wiped out and replaced by newcomers and their DNA proves that they are continium of ancient peoples.


I am talking facts, not conspiracies, so stop belittling my posts.



This is true, but Arabness comes from the Arabian peninsular, and there also genetics relating to that and Turkish and Persian as well as Semite. Like I said there are actually tribal connections to the Arabian peninsular in some cases,. They knew of Lawrence of Arabia, well. Their nationalism at that time stemmed from Arab nationalism, not Palestinian nationalism, and I would argue it still does equally. The word Palestine actually come from and Egyptian and Hebrew "Plesheth" which actually what we call Philistine. The Philistine were actually a different people. But tit does allude to migratory/transient people. You might say the Bedouin are the closest to that description at least traditionally.

Yazidis, Kurds, Assyrian Christians these are not Arabs. But those that identify with Arab culture are. You could argue the Yemenite Jews are Arab. They come from the Arabian peninsular after all, some may identify as such, others may dispute this. It is fair to say the Palestinians overall identify as Arab. The Druze don't, the Bedouin sometimes dispute being Arab, and certainly Palestinian. The Christians didn't used to but go caught up in the who Arab nationalism, Nasserist, Baathist nonsense (which was really a pretext for minorities stuck in an existential battle to rule with an iron fist, and a counter to the other form of inhumanity which is the ayatollahs,sheiks and emirates). Once you get out of the Holy Land / Levant Christians are less likely to identify as Arab.

The point is Palestinians have never really ruled over themselves, and they were given a golden opportunity in 1947 and squandered it.

In 1947 Gaza wasn't a strip it touched the West Bank. That meant that both Israel and Palestinian territories had pretty much the same deal, no one side controlled the centre, they has the same access to the Mediterranean, and the the East. But then then Arab nations attacked Israel, much like Hamas is trying to do now. In fact the Arab view back then is near identical to Hamas today. Consider how well they could have done if they had made peace then.

If the Palestinians are so close to the Jews, why make enemies with them? The reality is this is less about the villages that we displaced (which actually they were allowed to stay until they decided to fight). This is about religion, this about control of the holy land.



The_Face_of_Boo
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11 Aug 2014, 4:48 am

Quote:
Like I said there are actually tribal connections to the Arabian peninsular in some cases,.


And those are only few families, in Lebanon for example you are talking only about the "Siyyed" ( Few Shi'a families who claim ancestry to Mohammad), the clans of the Beqaa valley who are all descendants of Al Hamadiyah clan, an old Arabian clan in Jordan and they still have very distinct customs in business and relationships as their own law ie. honor killing - which why they often clash with the local authorities. While most of them are religious Shi'a, even Hezbollah has failed to totally assimilate them and often clashed with them as well. There are also the Bedouins, who also have almost the same clan code.
But all of those are a minority and aren't much more than Armenians for example.


Quote:
Their nationalism at that time stemmed from Arab nationalism, not Palestinian nationalism


Arab nationalism was a political phase claiming that all Arabized peoples are totally Arabs, there are also movements, like the Phalanges and SSNP, who claim that we aren't Arabs at all and we are 100% descendants of Canaanites/Phoenicians.

Both sides are being political, baseless and false.


Anyway, Mr. duck, if you take a look at these studies you realize that what's "Semitic" and "Not Semitic" is more a matter of linguistic/cultural grouping rather than genetic/tribal; Iranian, Turks and Armenians aren't that far from us genetically.



The_Face_of_Boo
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11 Aug 2014, 5:05 am

Duck, there's a very very little known of the Philistines and they are almost only mentioned in the Torah as being in direct conflict with ancient Israelites.



Quote:
Biblical archaeology has focused on identifying archaeological evidence for the Philistines. According to Israel Finkelstein, archaeological research to date has been unable to corroborate a mass settlement of Philistines during the Ramesses III era.[10] Archaeological references in Egyptian texts, and later in Assyrian texts, to "Peleset" or "Palashtu" appear from c.1150 BCE, just as archaeological references to "Kinaḫḫu" or "Ka-na-na" (Canaan) come to an end.[11]




Israel Finkelstein, Is The Philistine Paradigm Still Viable?, in: Bietak, M., (Ed.), The Synchronisation of Civilisations in the Eastern Mediterranean in the Second Millennium B. C. III. Proceedings of the SCIEM 2000 ? 2nd Euro- Conference, Vienna, 28th of May?1st of June 2003, Denkschriften der Ge- samtakademie 37, Contributions to the Chronology of the Eastern Mediterranean 9, Vienna 2007, pages 517?524. Quote:

"SUMMARY Was there a Sea Peoples migration to the coast of the Levant? Yes. Was it a maritime migration? Possibly. Was there a massive maritime Sea Peoples invasion? Probably not. Did the Philistines settle en-mass in Philistia in the days of Ramesses III? No. Were the Iron I Philistine cities fortified? No. Were the Iron I Philistines organized in a peer-polity system? Probably not. Was there a Philistine Pentapolis system in the Iron I? No. Are the Iron I Philistines the Philistines described in the Bible? No."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines#Population

Philistines were probably of the Sea peoples and were mixed and assimilated by the Canaanite culture which was already existing there.



Back to the study, it's very interesting to see how genetically close Moroccan-Jews to Lebanese compared to other Moroccans; I've read earlier a theory saying that North African and Spanish Jews are possibly descendants of Carthaginians, who have adopted the Jewish religion when Judaism totally replaced the Canaanite religion (after the fall of Carthage, the last Canaanite civilization) in their ancient homeland of Canaan.



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11 Aug 2014, 5:51 am

I believe Moroccan Jews are Spanish/Sephardic Jews, from the Inquisition. Not certain but I think so.

It is funny that Morraco is sometimes called the middle east when it more west than most of Europe. I call it North Africa.

In Jamaica I knew some Jews, who had been there longer then the British. These were Spanish and Portuguese Jews they had descended from. In the main synagogue thy had a sandpit I was told, which is pretty unusual. It is to symbolize soft ground so they could escape silently, from the Inquisitors. I'm not sure if you had to walk across it to get in.

Well of course genetically you are Caucasian mostly. We all moved all about the place, back and forth.

Early man actually left Africa and would have traveled through your region.



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11 Aug 2014, 6:08 am

Phalanges are a classic example of blow back. They have been pretty extreme in the past. But it isn't surprising a resistance, to Arab culture. Especially from Christians and other groups.

Although technically you are Canaanite too. Probably more so in Lebanon.

Canaanite also was a culture like Arab. It influenced Judaism. It fact there a some customs that appear to be left over. Like ritual that some do with chickens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapparot



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11 Aug 2014, 12:10 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
I believe Moroccan Jews are Spanish/Sephardic Jews, from the Inquisition. Not certain but I think so.

It is funny that Morraco is sometimes called the middle east when it more west than most of Europe. I call it North Africa.



Well, Carthage extended to Spain, you know.

Some accounts say they came to Morocco in two waves, the second wave were of those from Spain, the first is said they came after the destruction of the first temple, but this is a biblical story.

From wiki about the origin of spanish jews:

Quote:
Some associate the country of Tarshish, as mentioned in the books of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, I Kings, Jonah and Romans, with a locale in southern Spain. In generally describing Tyre's empire from west to east, Tarshish is listed first (Ezekiel 27.12?14), and in Jonah 1.3 it is the place to which Jonah sought to flee from the Lord; evidently it represents the westernmost place to which one could sail.

If Tarshish was indeed Spain, Jewish contact with Iberia may date back to the time of Solomon. The relationship would likely have been one based on trade. Ezekiel 27.12 describes such a connection: "Tarshish did business with you out of the abundance of your great wealth; silver, iron, tin, and lead they exchanged with you for your wares", and as much is demonstrated in I Kings 10.22: "For the king had a fleet of ships of Tarshish at sea with the fleet of Hiram. Once every three years the fleet of ships of Tarshish used to come bringing gold, silver, ivory, apes, and peacocks."

The link between Jews and Tarshish is clear. One might speculate that commerce conducted by Jewish emissaries, merchants, craftsmen, or other tradesmen among the Semitic Tyrean Phoenicians might have brought them to Tarshish. Although the notion of Tarshish as Spain is merely based on suggestive material, it leaves open the possibility of a very early, although perhaps limited, Jewish presence in the Iberian Peninsula.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... s_in_Spain



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11 Aug 2014, 6:59 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Tarantella, go check the internet, there are so many many sources of pro Israel, not necessarily religious, who try hard to prove that Palestinians are Arab newcomers to this land, thro history anaylsis rather than genetic, and therefore aren't much native for this land.

But such genetic studies do prove them wrong and prove that Palestinians aren't just Arabs, but are mixture of ancient peoples who lived on this land, Canaanites being the most ancient one.
Arabism was simply the most recent linguistic (and bit genetic) layer.
It's the same case of Lebanese/Syrians; hell our spoken dialect is about 40% Syriac.
But hey, it's not all that bad for you, those studies also strongly indicate that jews are our relatives too; so that prove wrong for those who deny that.

My previous post was a response to the youtube video as well; there's no point in Canaan history where a whole population was totally wiped out and replaced by newcomers and their DNA proves that they are continuum of ancient peoples.


I am talking facts, not conspiracies, so stop belittling my posts.


I'm not saying the above is conspiracy (I actually didn't read most of it.) What I'm saying is: so what? This is not how geopolitics works, it was ours X,000 years ago. That stuff is for propaganda purposes only, for stirring up your base. Now is now.



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11 Aug 2014, 7:23 pm

It would be fair if there were a "two-state" solution with absolute assurance against terrorist attacks against each other. Everyone has a claim of some sort--whether Palestinian, Arab, or Jewish. The Palestinian state has to recognize the right of Israel to exist, and vice versa.



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12 Aug 2014, 1:19 am

tarantella64 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Tarantella, go check the internet, there are so many many sources of pro Israel, not necessarily religious, who try hard to prove that Palestinians are Arab newcomers to this land, thro history anaylsis rather than genetic, and therefore aren't much native for this land.

But such genetic studies do prove them wrong and prove that Palestinians aren't just Arabs, but are mixture of ancient peoples who lived on this land, Canaanites being the most ancient one.
Arabism was simply the most recent linguistic (and bit genetic) layer.
It's the same case of Lebanese/Syrians; hell our spoken dialect is about 40% Syriac.
But hey, it's not all that bad for you, those studies also strongly indicate that jews are our relatives too; so that prove wrong for those who deny that.

My previous post was a response to the youtube video as well; there's no point in Canaan history where a whole population was totally wiped out and replaced by newcomers and their DNA proves that they are continuum of ancient peoples.


I am talking facts, not conspiracies, so stop belittling my posts.


I'm not saying the above is conspiracy (I actually didn't read most of it.) What I'm saying is: so what? This is not how geopolitics works, it was ours X,000 years ago. That stuff is for propaganda purposes only, for stirring up your base. Now is now.


This post lacks clarity. What stuff is for propaganda only? The genetic studies which are done by third parties?? It's the video and all this talk on Israeli websites about how Palestinians are Arab newcomers are all propaganda.


Quote:
This is not how geopolitics works, it was ours X,000 years ago.


It was also the for the descendants who always lived on it, who we call today the Palestinians.



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12 Aug 2014, 3:58 am

For one thing, the Jews were never allowed to fire rockets from their ghettos into the Nazis or anyone else. They never left their ghetto with explosive devices attached to their persons in order to detonate in a crowded plaza or on a bus. They never kidnapped Germans only to execute them by beheading only to throw the lifeless corpse on the side of the road for someone else to find. So yeah, I'd say there's some differences between Jews, Palestinians and Nazis.



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12 Aug 2014, 4:17 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
For one thing, the Jews were never allowed to fire rockets from their ghettos into the Nazis or anyone else. They never left their ghetto with explosive devices attached to their persons in order to detonate in a crowded plaza or on a bus. They never kidnapped Germans only to execute them by beheading only to throw the lifeless corpse on the side of the road for someone else to find. So yeah, I'd say there's some differences between Jews, Palestinians and Nazis.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakam

Armed resistance is a natural reaction,

And violence brings more violence, and there are people in every population who are inclined to respond with equal or more violence:
http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/789 ... n-germans/


The only real difference for that situation, Ana, that Jews were having way less support there in Germany, almost all of Europe were their enemies, their problem wasn't just Germany. If there were any nearby European countries supporting them for real, then there would have been brigades of armed Jewish resistance against the Nazis but the Jews were alone in all this.

And if they were capable to shoot rockets, they would have done it; so I am not getting your point here.

While the Palestinians initially received a lot of sympathy and support (and mutual exploit but that's another story) from other Arabs and Middle Easterns; hence why they formed armed militias.

You are comparing oranges to apples regarding the circumstances.



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12 Aug 2014, 12:05 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Tarantella, go check the internet, there are so many many sources of pro Israel, not necessarily religious, who try hard to prove that Palestinians are Arab newcomers to this land, thro history anaylsis rather than genetic, and therefore aren't much native for this land.

But such genetic studies do prove them wrong and prove that Palestinians aren't just Arabs, but are mixture of ancient peoples who lived on this land, Canaanites being the most ancient one.
Arabism was simply the most recent linguistic (and bit genetic) layer.
It's the same case of Lebanese/Syrians; hell our spoken dialect is about 40% Syriac.
But hey, it's not all that bad for you, those studies also strongly indicate that jews are our relatives too; so that prove wrong for those who deny that.

My previous post was a response to the youtube video as well; there's no point in Canaan history where a whole population was totally wiped out and replaced by newcomers and their DNA proves that they are continuum of ancient peoples.


I am talking facts, not conspiracies, so stop belittling my posts.


I'm not saying the above is conspiracy (I actually didn't read most of it.) What I'm saying is: so what? This is not how geopolitics works, it was ours X,000 years ago. That stuff is for propaganda purposes only, for stirring up your base. Now is now.


This post lacks clarity. What stuff is for propaganda only? The genetic studies which are done by third parties?? It's the video and all this talk on Israeli websites about how Palestinians are Arab newcomers are all propaganda.



ALL of it is propaganda. We were here first, they were here first, we were here before them, etc. Ancient-claims talk, it's all hooey that's good only for propaganda value, stirring people up to fight. What matters in geopolitics is who's got it now and who can defend it.


Quote:
This is not how geopolitics works, it was ours X,000 years ago.


It was also the for the descendants who always lived on it, who we call today the Palestinians.[/quote]

See above. I'm not saying "It was ours X,000 years ago", I'm saying that geopolitics doesn't work via claims of ancient having.



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12 Aug 2014, 12:11 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Tarantella, go check the internet, there are so many many sources of pro Israel, not necessarily religious, who try hard to prove that Palestinians are Arab newcomers to this land, thro history anaylsis rather than genetic, and therefore aren't much native for this land.

But such genetic studies do prove them wrong and prove that Palestinians aren't just Arabs, but are mixture of ancient peoples who lived on this land, Canaanites being the most ancient one.
Arabism was simply the most recent linguistic (and bit genetic) layer.
It's the same case of Lebanese/Syrians; hell our spoken dialect is about 40% Syriac.
But hey, it's not all that bad for you, those studies also strongly indicate that jews are our relatives too; so that prove wrong for those who deny that.

My previous post was a response to the youtube video as well; there's no point in Canaan history where a whole population was totally wiped out and replaced by newcomers and their DNA proves that they are continuum of ancient peoples.


I am talking facts, not conspiracies, so stop belittling my posts.


I'm not saying the above is conspiracy (I actually didn't read most of it.) What I'm saying is: so what? This is not how geopolitics works, it was ours X,000 years ago. That stuff is for propaganda purposes only, for stirring up your base. Now is now.


This post lacks clarity. What stuff is for propaganda only? The genetic studies which are done by third parties?? It's the video and all this talk on Israeli websites about how Palestinians are Arab newcomers are all propaganda.



ALL of it is propaganda. We were here first, they were here first, we were here before them, etc. Ancient-claims talk, it's all hooey that's good only for propaganda value, stirring people up to fight. What matters in geopolitics is who's got it now and who can defend it.


Quote:
This is not how geopolitics works, it was ours X,000 years ago.


It was also the for the descendants who always lived on it, who we call today the Palestinians.


See above. I'm not saying "It was ours X,000 years ago", I'm saying that geopolitics doesn't work via claims of ancient having.[/quote]

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... alalt.html



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12 Aug 2014, 12:37 pm

Mitt Romney has flaws, as does Obama. You dont have to vote for either one. But it doesnt help your cause if you insist that either Obama, or Romney "are no different from Jack-the-Ripper!".

You dont have to like Zionism, but it is not accurate to say that it is "no different from Nazism".

Both Nazism, and Zionism, are forms of nationalism (making a secular religion out of one's own tribe), and the intensification of nationalism in late Nineteenth Centurey European thought. So both are symptoms of the same philosophical disease. But Nazism is the far more malignant manifestation of the two. Both invoke ancient mythology. Both sought land. But wanting to steal a piece of land the size of Jersy is not the same as seeking to enslave a whole continent and its inhabitants.