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AspieUtah
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21 Jul 2014, 6:00 pm

A referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_ ... ndum,_2014 on whether Scotland should be an independent country will take place on Sept. 18, 2014. Following an agreement between the Scottish government and the U.K. government, the Scottish Independence Referendum Bill, setting out the arrangements for this referendum, was put forward on March 21, 2013, passed by the Scottish Parliament on Nov. 14, 2013 and received Royal Assent on Dec. 17, 2013. The referendum question, as recommended by the Electoral Commission, will be ?Should Scotland be an independent country??

Polls published this month https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_p ... ndum,_2014 show that voters who oppose the referendum question lead those voters who support it by 5 to 11 percentage points.

Whether you live in Scotland or not, do you support the referendum question?

As a Jeffersonian, I support the idea of citizens choosing to secede their state from unions like the United States and the United Kingdom. I support especially the idea of states seceding when they had been coerced unfairly to join or remain joined to a union.


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22 Jul 2014, 3:21 pm

Hi David,

Here are a few points about your message which I hope will clarify some common misconceptions.

Quote:
Following an agreement between the Scottish government and the UK government,


This agreement is an illusion which allows the UK government to believe that it has a legal power which it does not have. The following is an extract from a newspaper article on 11 February, 2012 -

'But in a contribution to the UK Constitutional Law Group, the experts say allowing Westminster to grant the referendum should not be an acknowledgment of sovereignty.
"It is important any such agreement should be not taken as an unequivocal endorsement of the view Westminster alone is entitled to authorise a referendum on the constitutional future of any part of the UK," they say.'


Over many years I've learned to be a bit wary about opinion polls before any election or referendum - especially here in Scotland. What people say and what people do are two entirely different things. The only opinion poll which really matters is the one on the day of the vote.

The original question planned was this - Do you think that Scotland should be an independent country? I supported that question and I now support the question recommended by the Electoral Commission. The important point is that for the first time ever the people of Scotland will be able to determine whether or not Scotland should remain part of the political union of 1707.

The use of the word 'secede' is not suitable in the case of Scotland as the following should clarify -

"In contrast, Lane says Scotland cannot break away like Ireland as it was 'one of the basic building blocks of "the United Kingdom of Great Britain"' (Lane 1991: 146). Without Scotland there is no 'Great Britain' and without Great Britain there is no 'United Kingdom'."

SOURCE: 'SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE: A Practical Guide', by Jo Eric Murkens with Peter Jones and Michael Keating, page 109, ISBN 0-7486-1699-3


'If the Scottish people expressed a desire for independence the stage would be set for a direct clash between what is the English doctrine of sovereignty and the Scottish doctrine of the sovereignty of the people.'

SOURCE: 'The Operation of Multi-Layer Democracy', Scottish Affairs Committee Second Report of Session 1997-1998, HC 460-I, 2 December 1998.


Michael Follon



pluto
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22 Jul 2014, 3:38 pm

Although I'll be voting No,I'm thankful that we live in a democracy that allows the referendum to take place (Something that the
Spanish government objects to Catalonia doing for example).

There are various reasons why I think complete separation would be a step too far :
Other countries that have broken up until now have been 'artificially' put together by outside forces in the first place (Yugoslavia,
Czechoslovakia) whereas the United Kingdom was effectively a natural union of countries sharing the same island and with mutual
benefits in uniting. I know some of my fellow Scots hold the view that we were 'taken over' by England but history doesn't really
back that view up.

In many ways Scotland is already 'independent' - separate parliament,laws,education policy,National Health Service,also national sports teams who compete independently in such as football and rugby (and will also be highlighted in other sports as part of the Commonwealth Games taking place in Glasgow soon where all 4 nations of the UK compete separately among the 71 countries taking part).

There is a Yes argument that Scotland's oil resources make it self sufficient - I would say that although the oil is in Scottish waters,
it is extracted by Anglo-American and Dutch companies as well as Scottish ones. The same goes for whisky,which although produced
in Scotland is ultimately owned and distributed by multi national companies.

Nevertheless,if the vote is in favour of independence,I'd accept it as the will of the people and do my best to make it work.


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AspieUtah
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22 Jul 2014, 4:04 pm

Scotnat wrote:
...The important point is that for the first time ever the people of Scotland will be able to determine whether or not Scotland should remain part of the political union of 1707....

Thank you, Michael. I agree.

Scotnat wrote:
...The use of the word 'secede' is not suitable in the case of Scotland as the following should clarify....

I used the word "secede" as it is defined by Merriam-Webster http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/secede as "to withdraw from an organization (as a religious communion or political party or federation)." It seemed to fit the descriptions providing by the referendum and yourself. But, MW is the standard for American English. I agree that the word might have other definitions and uses in Scotland.


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MakaylaTheAspie
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22 Jul 2014, 4:11 pm

What I would ask myself before voting over that would be "Is Scotland self-sufficient enough to become its own country?"

Don't get me wrong, I adore Scotland (especially the rugby team!). But oil is a very limited resource, and unless they have other plans to be self-sufficient, I'd say that becoming independent with a lack of sufficiency plan would eventually lead them to ruin.

While I do like the idea of legal separation and independence, it wouldn't be a very good move for them economy-wise.


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22 Jul 2014, 4:30 pm

pluto wrote:
(Something that the Spanish government objects to Catalonia doing for example).


Such a referendum is illegal according to the Spanish Constitution. In principle, there is a way: the Constitution can be modified to allow it by having the majority of all Spaniards agree in another referendum?but you can rest assured it will never happen :twisted:


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24 Jul 2014, 12:33 pm

pluto wrote:

Other countries that have broken up until now have been 'artificially' put together by outside forces in the first place (Yugoslavia,
Czechoslovakia) whereas the United Kingdom was effectively a natural union of countries sharing the same island and with mutual
benefits in uniting.


There was nothing natural about the Alien Act of 1705. So the United Kingdom was not an artificial construct?



pluto
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24 Jul 2014, 4:27 pm

Scotnat wrote:
pluto wrote:

Other countries that have broken up until now have been 'artificially' put together by outside forces in the first place (Yugoslavia,
Czechoslovakia) whereas the United Kingdom was effectively a natural union of countries sharing the same island and with mutual
benefits in uniting.


There was nothing natural about the Alien Act of 1705. So the United Kingdom was not an artificial construct?


It depends how far back in history you go. Long before 1705 Edinburgh was once part of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria,
Strathclyde stretched as far as Wales (the surname of William Wallace means 'Welsh') and Dumbarton was the ancient 'Fort Of The Britons'.
The Scots came over from the north of Ireland so have we historical links with all nations of the UK which have existed since before the concept of Scotland being a nation came about.


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24 Jul 2014, 5:17 pm

If Scotland leaves, with their King Beyond the Wall Alex Salmond, then so should the North. We should appoint our own king over us, a Saxon, and drive out those invaders from beyond the sea from our lands. Hail whoever, King in the North!


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07 Sep 2014, 9:08 am

SCOTSMAN.COM: "Scottish independence: Poll puts Yes in lead" (September 7, 2014)
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottis ... -1-3533686

Quote:
THE YES CAMPAIGN is ahead in the Scottish referendum battle for the first time, according to a poll, amid signs of infighting among senior figures backing the union.

The YouGov research for the Sunday Times found 51% supported independence, compared to 49% who wanted to remain in the UK.

The results are the latest evidence of a dramatic surge for the Yes Scotland campaign, which has seen the gap between the sides - once regularly in double digits - vanish in a matter of months....


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07 Sep 2014, 12:37 pm

When Latvia became independent of the Soviet Union,half of the population remained Russian not Latvian.
The circumstances are different but if it's a Yes vote,I can envisage half the population of Scotland wanting to remaining British or to have joint citizenship.I'm suprised all this potential confusion over identity hasn't featured more in the debates.


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AspieUtah
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07 Sep 2014, 1:42 pm

ZEROHEDGE.COM: "UK In "Full Panic Mode", Rains Brimstone, Bribes On Scotland As "Yes" To Independence Poll Crosses 50%" (September 7, 2014)
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-0 ... ce-poll-cr

Quote:
All pundits who over the past few months have been saying the possibility of Scottish independence as a result of the September 18 ballot, is at best a pipe dream got a rude wake up call overnight, when Scottish YouGov poll for the Sunday Times put the 'Yes' (for independence campaign) on top for the first time since polling began, with 'No' below the majority cutoff line for the first time, at 49, when undecided voters are excluded, and even when including undecideds 'Yes' is still ahead by two points at 47-45. As the Spectator reports, 'in the space of four weeks, 'No' has blown a 22-point lead....'


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07 Sep 2014, 1:53 pm

SCOTSMAN.COM: "Scottish independence: Proclaimers song tops chart" (September 2, 2014)
http://www.scotsman.com/what-s-on/music ... -1-3527999

Quote:
The Proclaimers? pro-independence anthem Cap in Hand has soared to the top of the download charts after a campaign was launched to make it the Number One UK single.

Yes-supporting activists want to see it dominate the airwaves in the final weeks of the campaign and a social media drive pushed it to the top of the Amazon singles chart last night.

The 1988 song from the classic Sunshine on Leith album is a long-time favourite among the Nationalist movement and contains the iconic chorus line: 'I can?t understand why we let someone else rule our land ? cap in hand....'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNCFR8SqioE


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07 Sep 2014, 2:08 pm

I've heard that Orkney and Shetland want to become part of Norway.



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07 Sep 2014, 2:26 pm

Humanaut wrote:
I've heard that Orkney and Shetland want to become part of Norway.

The Shetlands I can understand, the Orkneys are closer to the Scottish mainland, though. Seems to me their concerns are about the distance from the seat of government which is (for all practical purposes) London and Windsor. If that seat were to move to, say, Edinburgh, the Orkney and Shetland islanders might feel less inclined to seek independence, crown dependency of their own or subsumption with Norway. The big question is: Would Norway accept the idea of governing the islands?


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07 Sep 2014, 2:40 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Would Norway accept the idea of governing the islands?

Sure. They have oil and fish.