Dating an anti-feminist girl

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Marcia
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12 Aug 2014, 3:40 pm

Feminism, and certainly the patriarchy it seeks to address, isn't so much about individuals as it is about systems and structure, about societal conditioning, norms and expectations. It's about historical and deeply engrained imbalances of power, which are preserved in attitudes and behaviours, often to a degree that they are little recognised, far less acknowledged.

That is why the hashtag YesAllWomen was such a shock to those who actually listened and thought about what those voices were saying. In many ways the most disturbing commonalities weren't those physical and sexual abuses which are defined and recognised in law as criminal behaviours, but the myriad of more subtle ways in which women make decisions and adjustments in their daily lives. So subtle, so commonplace, that these behaviours are rarely questioned even by the women themselves.



Last edited by Marcia on 12 Aug 2014, 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Eureka13
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12 Aug 2014, 3:49 pm

^^ Exactly the point of this (reposting in hopes someone might actually read it - there are things in here I hadn't even thought of): http://www.upworthy.com/51-pretty-shock ... &c=reccon1



starvingartist
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12 Aug 2014, 3:56 pm

Marcia wrote:
Feminism is, and certainly the patriarchy it seeks to address, isn't so much about individuals as it is about systems and structure, about societal conditioning, norms and expectations. It's about historical and deeply engrained imbalances of power, which are preserved in attitudes and behaviours, often to a degree that they are little recognised, far less acknowledged.

That is why the hashtag YesAllWomen was such a shock to those who actually listened and thought about what those voices were saying. In many ways the most disturbing commonalities weren't those physical and sexual abuses which are defined and recognised in law as criminal behaviours, but the myriad of more subtle ways in which women make decisions and adjustments in their daily lives. So subtle, so commonplace, that these behaviours are rarely questioned even by the women themselves.


^^^^this is what so many people fail to take into account when they talk about how "unnecessary" and "irrelevant" feminism has supposedly become in the west.

for example, the male poster who mentioned experiencing gender-based discrimination at work doesn't seem to be aware that the female boss who is mistreating him doesn't have the same historical context or power structure behind her supporting/sanctioning her sexism at a supervisory level as a male boss in the same position would have, as most of the people above him (at the executive levels) in most companies are still male, even here in the west. i think this is what eureka may have been referencing--not that men can't experience discrimination at the workplace, but that when they do, it is not in the same context as workplace sexism directed at women because there is not the same power imbalance culturally (yes, it still exists in the minds of millions of people alive today, that women are second-class citizens).



Eureka13
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12 Aug 2014, 4:19 pm

^^

Actually, contrary to assertions, I did not ever say that no man ever in the history of the world had experienced gender discrimination; I was talking to one particular poster, betting that he personally had not.

But, YES, what you are saying is absolutely correct. If/when gender discrimination towards men does take place, it is in an entirely different context than what women experience.



kraftiekortie
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12 Aug 2014, 5:16 pm

If a guy (or a woman) is actually discriminated against, I don't think the discriminated one cares about the "history" of discrimination--whether, historically, women were discriminated against by the "Patriarchy," etc. This is best left to the intellectuals/academics who are conducting studies pertaining to the subject. He/she wants to deal with his/her specific case of discrimination.

He/she wants to deal with the discrimination on a discrete, individual level, applicable only to his/her self and the person doing the discriminating. This is a "real-life" situation. Historicity has no basis in this argument. What counts is the fact of the discrimination AT THAT IMMEDIATE MOMENT. Whether women were discriminated against more in the past (obviously true) carries little relevance here.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 12 Aug 2014, 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Marcia
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12 Aug 2014, 5:32 pm

The history of gender imbalance means though, that it remains a reality for women in so many aspects of our lives. Yes, there has been legislative, political and economic change, but I think it is, quite understandably, difficult for men fully to grasp the extent to which women are still subject to inequalities and perceptions based on gender. Our society, and I speak here of Western industrialised societies which have moved substantially towards formal gender equality, is so permeated with, and formed by, patriarchal attitudes, that they are quite simply part of our everyday landscape.



onewithstrange
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12 Aug 2014, 5:35 pm

Eureka13 wrote:
Actually, contrary to assertions, I did not ever say that no man ever in the history of the world had experienced gender discrimination; I was talking to one particular poster, betting that he personally had not.


You're a terrible liar. There was no point in adding "If you are a man" if all you meant was "You have not personally experienced gender discrimination." Like, at all. And as I said when you first tried covering yourself, it doesn't pass the smells test that you're willing to assume I haven't personally experienced gender discrimination but not willing to assume my gender (which I'm sure you suspected from my posts in other threads such as this handsome specimen: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt263073.html) You're better off just admitting that you got caught in the moment and said something stupid and offensive. But oh you can't do that since that means I Would Have Won?! :roll:


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Eureka13
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12 Aug 2014, 5:41 pm

New WP rule: correctly guess every poster's gender, or keep your mouth shut.

I'll be changing my avatar now to something gender-neutral.

:roll:



kraftiekortie
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12 Aug 2014, 6:16 pm

I happen to like your avatar.

It looks nice.



CommanderKeen
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12 Aug 2014, 6:49 pm

starvingartist wrote:
Marcia wrote:
Feminism is, and certainly the patriarchy it seeks to address, isn't so much about individuals as it is about systems and structure, about societal conditioning, norms and expectations. It's about historical and deeply engrained imbalances of power, which are preserved in attitudes and behaviours, often to a degree that they are little recognised, far less acknowledged.

That is why the hashtag YesAllWomen was such a shock to those who actually listened and thought about what those voices were saying. In many ways the most disturbing commonalities weren't those physical and sexual abuses which are defined and recognised in law as criminal behaviours, but the myriad of more subtle ways in which women make decisions and adjustments in their daily lives. So subtle, so commonplace, that these behaviours are rarely questioned even by the women themselves.


^^^^this is what so many people fail to take into account when they talk about how "unnecessary" and "irrelevant" feminism has supposedly become in the west.

for example, the male poster who mentioned experiencing gender-based discrimination at work doesn't seem to be aware that the female boss who is mistreating him doesn't have the same historical context or power structure behind her supporting/sanctioning her sexism at a supervisory level as a male boss in the same position would have, as most of the people above him (at the executive levels) in most companies are still male, even here in the west. i think this is what eureka may have been referencing--not that men can't experience discrimination at the workplace, but that when they do, it is not in the same context as workplace sexism directed at women because there is not the same power imbalance culturally (yes, it still exists in the minds of millions of people alive today, that women are second-class citizens).

Wait? Are you saying that is a woman discriminates against a man in the workplace, it's not as bad as a men discriminating against a woman?



Eureka13
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12 Aug 2014, 7:21 pm

More food for thought (unless, as a few here seem to be, you're on a permanent intellectual diet :P ):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/1 ... mg00000063



onewithstrange
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12 Aug 2014, 7:47 pm

Eureka13 wrote:
New WP rule: correctly guess every poster's gender, or keep your mouth shut.

I'll be changing my avatar now to something gender-neutral.

:roll:


You ain't fooling anybody, sweetie :wink:


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Eureka13
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12 Aug 2014, 9:41 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I happen to like your avatar.

It looks nice.


Thank you! It's one of those "cartoon-ize yourself" things. I had fun creating it. :)



tarantella64
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12 Aug 2014, 10:08 pm

OWS, I just noticed your growing list of sig lines after reading your frothing at eureka....gave me a bit of a chuckle at first, but then I thought 'jesus, he has no idea how he comes off', and thought I ought to say something.

If you talk about someone implying you're a rapist, and in the same breath show yourself a calendar-keeping petty person and hostile to women generally, you...kinda give credence to the idea that maybe that implication has something to it. Like if I just walked in, and didn't know any of the people here, I'd think, "Maybe this tarantella's on to something."

To clarify, I never implied you're a rapist. I do think you're a complete bozo on the subject of nonverbal cues. But a rapist, not unless someone turns up saying "he raped me." The way you've arranged your sigfile, though, you're asking for people to think that maybe there's, you know, an issue with you.



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12 Aug 2014, 10:10 pm

CommanderKeen wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
Marcia wrote:
Feminism is, and certainly the patriarchy it seeks to address, isn't so much about individuals as it is about systems and structure, about societal conditioning, norms and expectations. It's about historical and deeply engrained imbalances of power, which are preserved in attitudes and behaviours, often to a degree that they are little recognised, far less acknowledged.

That is why the hashtag YesAllWomen was such a shock to those who actually listened and thought about what those voices were saying. In many ways the most disturbing commonalities weren't those physical and sexual abuses which are defined and recognised in law as criminal behaviours, but the myriad of more subtle ways in which women make decisions and adjustments in their daily lives. So subtle, so commonplace, that these behaviours are rarely questioned even by the women themselves.


^^^^this is what so many people fail to take into account when they talk about how "unnecessary" and "irrelevant" feminism has supposedly become in the west.

for example, the male poster who mentioned experiencing gender-based discrimination at work doesn't seem to be aware that the female boss who is mistreating him doesn't have the same historical context or power structure behind her supporting/sanctioning her sexism at a supervisory level as a male boss in the same position would have, as most of the people above him (at the executive levels) in most companies are still male, even here in the west. i think this is what eureka may have been referencing--not that men can't experience discrimination at the workplace, but that when they do, it is not in the same context as workplace sexism directed at women because there is not the same power imbalance culturally (yes, it still exists in the minds of millions of people alive today, that women are second-class citizens).

Wait? Are you saying that is a woman discriminates against a man in the workplace, it's not as bad as a men discriminating against a woman?


That isn't what she said. Read it again, all the words.



onewithstrange
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13 Aug 2014, 12:20 am

tarantella64 wrote:
If you talk about someone implying you're a rapist, and in the same breath show yourself a calendar-keeping petty person and hostile to women generally, you...kinda give credence to the idea that maybe that implication has something to it. Like if I just walked in, and didn't know any of the people here, I'd think, "Maybe this tarantella's on to something." I do think you're a complete bozo on the subject of nonverbal cues. But a rapist, not unless someone turns up saying "he raped me." The way you've arranged your sigfile, though, you're asking for people to think that maybe there's, you know, an issue with you.


I have a mathematics degree and I'm an electrical engineering student. Trust me, keeping track of one more number is hardly a strain on my brain, especially not when it helps me make a point that's important to me. I'm not hostile to women generally (another bogus claim, what a surprise), though I am clearly hostile to feminism's claim of supporting equal rights, as well as the sexism on this board that suggests a guy can't act on nonverbal cues without inherently disrespecting a woman. I'm also hostile to you for very specific reasons you're well aware of and for which you still haven't taken responsibility, despite moderator XFilesGeek assuring me he sent you a PM toward that end. In fact, this is his entire last PM to me:

XFilesGeek wrote:
OWS,

I've received no reply to my request to Tarantella to apologize to you; therefore, I've completely removed the topic from public view. A lot of pretty crappy things were said on that topic, and I don't want it to keep stinking up the place. I'm also going to be sending a warning to Tarantella not to engage in that sort of behavior again.

In the future, please let me, or another moderator, know if you are attacked in a similar fashion.

Thank you.


tarantella64 wrote:
To clarify, I never implied you're a rapist.


Fully five other people, including a moderator, have agreed with me that what you said sounds rapey, warrants an apology, or constitutes an attack. As vickygleitz pointed out, you may have underestimated how severely your words affected me. Here's the quote for prosperity, so people can again decide for themselves (bold emphasis mine):

tarantella64 wrote:
Congratulations for convincing me that you've got little enough self-control, and little enough respect for women, that women would be well-advised not to date you or get into elevators with you.


If you expected me to not take that personally, you were very sorely mistaken. I gave you the perfect opportunity to take back your words here. After relating my story of how upset I was for being made to feel that I intended harm on others, I really thought you would have shown me sympathy and would do the right thing. But what did I get in my inbox instead? You still adamantly arguing you're not guilty of wrongdoing; how I insult people when in actuality I insulted only you by saying (and I quote) "you represent the worst of feminism" and then only after you repeatedly undermined my own successful experiences with dating and made me to feel like I'm utterly incompetent, loathingly disrespectful, and impossibly dense; how I'm irrational; how I (and I quote) "disagreed with [you] vehemently for no apparent reason" even when I started out calm and said multiple times what my position was; how I'm "hugging this idea that I'm calling you a rapist like it's the last lifesaver on the Titanic" as if I'm happy to keep bringing up your hurtful words, and as if you really have no idea how hurtful saying what you did was. And for the record, I said you implied or suggested it. I'd pull up Merriam again to show you intent isn't required for an implication, but even I've grown too tired of myself doing that (do it yourselves, folks). I refuse to make any excuses about feeling very angry and upset with you in particular, tarantella64.

Now. With all that said, I'm fully and completely wanting to gratefully walk away from my antagonism, anger, and frustration and will if you would agree that, indeed, maybe you don't have the full picture and that, even if you don't understand me, you shouldn't have said what you did. Please. Believe me, I'd like nothing more than to drop this feud and these dreadful feelings. I'm exhausted and I'd frankly rather talk about something else. I can't let it slide until I'm vindicated, but I'd really like nothing more than to stop bringing it up. Truly. Could you please take it back? What would I have to say or do for you to take it back?


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