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Jacoby
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31 Aug 2014, 1:19 pm

If it was the UA then the scary thing is that it was completely intentional and done with the thought of creating a false flag, the rebels do not have any aircraft.



staremaster
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31 Aug 2014, 4:52 pm

I don't trust what anybody says about the MH17 incident; I can easily imagine either side pulling the trigger.



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31 Aug 2014, 5:06 pm

You don't hear anything about MH17 because we already know what happened. The Ukrainian separatists shot it down with a Russian supplied SAM system. If you followed Malaysian or Dutch news you might hear more as it was primarily their citizens murdered.

I think it is tunnel vision to focus only on the 30% or less minority ethnic Russians in western Ukraine and say that gives Russia the justification to annex the area. What about the other 70% ? I guess in the Russian view they do not count.



Jacoby
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31 Aug 2014, 5:23 pm

Toy_Soldier wrote:
You don't hear anything about MH17 because we already know what happened. The Ukrainian separatists shot it down with a Russian supplied SAM system. If you followed Malaysian or Dutch news you might hear more as it was primarily their citizens murdered.

I think it is tunnel vision to focus only on the 30% or less minority ethnic Russians in western Ukraine and say that gives Russia the justification to annex the area. What about the other 70% ? I guess in the Russian view they do not count.


And where is the evidence? Why aren't the black box recordings being released? Why did the UA have Buks even in that part of the country when the rebels have no aircraft? What was the Ukrainian military jet doing in the area of MH17 when it was downed? Why hasn't the US released any satellite data? They show us all this garbage about Russians firing into Ukraine or Russian equipment but they can't provide the evidence damning Russia and the rebels?

The only ones to have produced any scraps of evidence are the Russians and that points to the Ukrainian military, Robert Parry the journalist who broke the Iran-Contra scandal says that his sources say it was the Ukrainian military. Who benefited from shooting down the plane?

The only evidence of rebel involvement are garbage social media posts which are easily faked and manipulated. They tried to trick us into going to war with Syria similarly.

Donbass went something like 90%+ for Yanukovych, they almost all speak Russian, it doesn't matter what % the ethnic Russians are as it is clear who their allegiance is with.



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31 Aug 2014, 5:45 pm

Well, I think it is acknowledged that MH17 received a Ukrainian military escort at some point of its last trip, and it is also known that the separatists were manning active air defenses, so all I really know is that the plane was was in the gunsights of both the Ukrainian army and the insurgents. The denials of both parties are meaningless without more verifiable information.



Toy_Soldier
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31 Aug 2014, 11:24 pm

Well, one thing is certain. It has expanded.



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01 Sep 2014, 7:39 am

Toy_Soldier wrote:
You don't hear anything about MH17 because we already know what happened. The Ukrainian separatists shot it down with a Russian supplied SAM system. If you followed Malaysian or Dutch news you might hear more as it was primarily their citizens murdered.


No, that is only what Western governments and Kiev are claiming what has happend. Also the last thing we here in the Netherlands heard about it was that their was a secret deal made about the research and what to do with the findings.



Last edited by Sigbold on 02 Sep 2014, 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

danmac
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01 Sep 2014, 8:12 am

Toy_Soldier wrote:
You don't hear anything about MH17 because we already know what happened. The Ukrainian separatists shot it down with a Russian supplied SAM system. If you followed Malaysian or Dutch news you might hear more as it was primarily their citizens murdered.

I think it is tunnel vision to focus only on the 30% or less minority ethnic Russians in western Ukraine and say that gives Russia the justification to annex the area. What about the other 70% ? I guess in the Russian view they do not count.


fact-all this escalated in the beginning of the year with a move toward the EU with 56% wanting to join the EU and 46% not wanting to join.
fact-the US has spent 6 billon on "democracy" in the Ukraine
fact-Crimea was allowed the vote to join Russia
fact-Donetsk voted not to join Russia, but to be their own nation and the west and EU said that the vote wasn't "constitutional"
now piece it together.......the 6 billon is not for democracy, it is for all the oil fields and gas fields in Ukraine which happen to mostly be in Donetsk. US, for over a year has funded neo-nazis in Ukraine to over throw the gov. and join the EU.
read up on that(start with the slaughter at the union building in Odessa) and you will see the my shameful gov. (US) has been behind all of this for oil, bases around Russia, and upholding the dollar standerd.


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staremaster
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01 Sep 2014, 9:06 am

^^How does engaging in a proxy war with Russia uphold the dollar standard?



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01 Sep 2014, 1:00 pm

staremaster wrote:
^^How does engaging in a proxy war with Russia uphold the dollar standard?


too much to state in a post, look into B.R.I.C. and how they are challenging the dollar as the world currency
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRIC


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01 Sep 2014, 3:40 pm

Half of Ukraine is basically history, and will be annexed into Russia. My only question is if Putin will take all of Ukraine. I suspect not, as he has the main thing he wanted and he will stop at half so as to avoid risking an escalation with the west, for the moment. Stay tuned however, as more is to come.

Concurrently it marks the clear beginning of the 2nd Cold War, though that has been in work for a decade or so more or less behind the scenes.

It also sets the stage again for the possibility for WWIII. I think a 50/50 chance now in our lifetimes. Europe, Russia and the USA had the opportunity to form a peaceful long term association but it was blown. Putin will bare the greatest responsibility for that and any European or Eurasian Wars on the horizon. Bush will be judged the man that weakened the USA so it was unable to influence European affairs, by useless wars in the middle east, and also the man that gutted the power of the UN. The EU will be said to have missed the opportunity by reason of internal squabbling.

So the world will remain overly fragmented and competitive and like feral dogs will fight over the pieces.

Since Russia has lost democracy, and returned to single party totalitarianism and China will not embrace democracy, it is possible that the alignment in WWIII (which will be conventional, not nuclear) will be Russia and China on one side, much like Germany and Japan were in WWII vs the EU, USA, ANZAC and some Asian countries like Japan, PH, possibly Vietnam, S. Korea, etc.

But I can not predict the result. Other then death and destruction. Lots of that.



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01 Sep 2014, 4:12 pm

Putin stole a Super Bowl ring.Of course he will try and steal a country.


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01 Sep 2014, 5:02 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Putin stole a Super Bowl ring

Did Putin really steal a Super Bowl ring? If so, please provide a link to the necessary news.



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01 Sep 2014, 6:42 pm

Anyone with 1/100000000 of a brain can figure the airbus was shot down by the separatists.

Ukr. has been losing military planes over said area at a constant rate as long as they've been up.

And it's not like you can't say it wasn't an "accident". They probably just thought it was a Ukr. mil. plane flying high.

The biggest problems are why Ukraine hasn't done its utmost to talk the conflict away from the beginning, and why Russia is fine with helping fuel the fire (whilst lying about it).



Jacoby
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01 Sep 2014, 8:35 pm

Dillogic wrote:
Anyone with 1/100000000 of a brain can figure the airbus was shot down by the separatists.

Ukr. has been losing military planes over said area at a constant rate as long as they've been up.

And it's not like you can't say it wasn't an "accident". They probably just thought it was a Ukr. mil. plane flying high.

The biggest problems are why Ukraine hasn't done its utmost to talk the conflict away from the beginning, and why Russia is fine with helping fuel the fire (whilst lying about it).


And the evidence of this being true is what?

just because you parrot CNN and state department talking points doesn't mean you have a brain, quite the opposite if you can't objectively consider all possibilities.