Linux users-how did you not give up in frustration?

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Fogman
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05 Sep 2014, 3:06 pm

InTheDeepEnd wrote:
I'm trying to learn Linux...again. It's so frustrating, just like last time. Can anyone give me any advice or encouragement? Every time I want to do something I have to stop and learn how to do a bunch of other stuff that has to be done before I can do the original thing I wanted to do. I'm lucky if I don't forget what that original thing was after several hours or days of backtracking. Then there's the different favors of Linux which have slightly different ways of doing things, and it's frustrating to find the correct instructions for what I'm using (CentOS, based on Red Hat). How did you stick with it?


First off what are you trying to do with Linux? Replacement for Windows? Server admin?

If for Windows replacement, you will find the workflow of the KDE to be quite similar. Conversely, If you're used to the workflow of a Mac, you will find the workflow of GNOME 2.x/MATE desktop to be quite similar.

The /home directory is much the same as 'My Documents' directory in Windows, and MacHD in Macintosh.

Fonts, Desktop wallpapers, themes and such live in /usr/share. paths to binary files always point to /usr/bin/*application name*.

One thing that may be new to you is having a root account that you hardly ever login to other than to install stuff directly to the /usr directories, and setting permissions on the files and directories that you install. --Everything else can be done via the 'sudo' command, and entering you password.

Also, if you're using CentOS as a Windows or MacOS replacement, you've made a bad choice, as CentOS is essentially a free version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, which is geared more for corporate usage. You'd be better off using Ubuntu, or Ubuntu 'Spins' such as LinuxMint, or if you prefer the stability, Debian stable,(currently 'Wheezy') or spins on debian such as KWheezy (KDE Desktop), or PointLinux with MATE.

Whatever distro that you use, you will usually find support forums for. Use these ofrums, and use the search function on the forums to get answers to whatever it is you want to do.


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InTheDeepEnd
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06 Sep 2014, 12:46 pm

I am using CentOS to learn network security. That was the distro I was pointed to by the course I'm taking. I always used Windows until a few years ago when I stopped using anything but my iPad, then I recently got a Mac Pro. So I am running a virtual CentOS machine on my Mac. Given that OS X has a Unix backend, I am wondering if I even needed a virtual Linux machine, but I guess if I mess with the virtual machine I don't have to worry about screwing up my Mac.

I was trying to install a tool for my class on the Linux VM the other night and in order to do that I had to first install cmake. Then I determined there was no C/C++ compiler installed on the VM. Every time I had to install something it had to download the files so I'm wondering what the heck was in the CentOS ISO that I downloaded!! Feeling a good bit less frustrated about it all today.



Kurgan
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06 Sep 2014, 1:38 pm

InTheDeepEnd wrote:
I am using CentOS to learn network security. That was the distro I was pointed to by the course I'm taking. I always used Windows until a few years ago when I stopped using anything but my iPad, then I recently got a Mac Pro. So I am running a virtual CentOS machine on my Mac. Given that OS X has a Unix backend, I am wondering if I even needed a virtual Linux machine, but I guess if I mess with the virtual machine I don't have to worry about screwing up my Mac.

I was trying to install a tool for my class on the Linux VM the other night and in order to do that I had to first install cmake. Then I determined there was no C/C++ compiler installed on the VM. Every time I had to install something it had to download the files so I'm wondering what the heck was in the CentOS ISO that I downloaded!! Feeling a good bit less frustrated about it all today.


UNIX (mostly FreeBSD in the case of OS X) and Linux are actually quite different under the bonnet.


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Fogman
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06 Sep 2014, 5:44 pm

InTheDeepEnd wrote:
I am using CentOS to learn network security. That was the distro I was pointed to by the course I'm taking. I always used Windows until a few years ago when I stopped using anything but my iPad, then I recently got a Mac Pro. So I am running a virtual CentOS machine on my Mac. Given that OS X has a Unix backend, I am wondering if I even needed a virtual Linux machine, but I guess if I mess with the virtual machine I don't have to worry about screwing up my Mac.

I was trying to install a tool for my class on the Linux VM the other night and in order to do that I had to first install cmake. Then I determined there was no C/C++ compiler installed on the VM. Every time I had to install something it had to download the files so I'm wondering what the heck was in the CentOS ISO that I downloaded!! Feeling a good bit less frustrated about it all today.


AFAIK, OSX supports BSD Portage package management for GPL/BSD Licence Sourcecode packages. --This is part of the legacy of being based on BSD.

That being said, as others others have mentioned OSX is not BSD, and Linux is differant as well, though some manual tweaks will be fairly similar between BSD and Linux, at least.

Also, GCC is NOT a part of the VM, but should be a part of CentOS. To find it, run CentOS in your VM, open a terminal and type in gcc -v This will give you the version of GCC that you're running on CentOS, as well as a breakdown list of programming languages that it can compile.

Example: (From my own machine)
shawn@tenger:~$ gcc -v
Using built-in specs.
COLLECT_GCC=gcc
COLLECT_LTO_WRAPPER=/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/lto-wrapper
Target: x86_64-linux-gnu
Configured with: ../src/configure -v --with-pkgversion='Debian 4.7.2-5' --with-bugurl=file:///usr/share/doc/gcc-4.7/README.Bugs --enable-languages=c,c++,go,fortran,objc,obj-c++ --prefix=/usr --program-suffix=-4.7 --enable-shared --enable-linker-build-id --with-system-zlib --libexecdir=/usr/lib --without-included-gettext --enable-threads=posix --with-gxx-include-dir=/usr/include/c++/4.7 --libdir=/usr/lib --enable-nls --with-sysroot=/ --enable-clocale=gnu --enable-libstdcxx-debug --enable-libstdcxx-time=yes --enable-gnu-unique-object --enable-plugin --enable-objc-gc --with-arch-32=i586 --with-tune=generic --enable-checking=release --build=x86_64-linux-gnu --host=x86_64-linux-gnu --target=x86_64-linux-gnu
Thread model: posix
gcc version 4.7.2 (Debian 4.7.2-5)


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DentArthurDent
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10 Sep 2014, 7:54 pm

EnglishInvader wrote:
I feel like asking Windows users the same question.


+1


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DRzero
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21 Sep 2014, 5:51 pm

I got a laptop a few months ago and installed Ubuntu on it, since I'd heard good things about it. I instantly loathed the Unity UI (so does Linus Torvalds). I installed Gnome since I'd used it a few months previously and liked it. I discovered that the current version of Gnome was extremely similar to Unity, so then I installed XUbuntu/xfce/whatever and that was OK.

I find that Ubuntu has a lot of fancy stuff that makes it harder to use. Perhaps the Ubuntu people are trying to make it more like Windows. I think that's a mistake. If I wanted an OS that were just like Windows, I'd use Windows.

I admit I don't have a great reason for learning Linux, but eventually I'd like to get into cybersecurity and hacking.

I'm considering getting rid of Ubuntu and installing some Arch Linux distro. Any advice? I'm a newb, and I think I'm not alone in finding installing Linux much harder than using it.


Kurgan wrote:
The best way to learn Linux is to find an actual reason to use Linux. For me, that reason was low-level programming, but other reasons can be server management, building your own embedded system, and so on. Any reason to install Linux in the first place, is also a reason to install an Arch Linux-based or Slackware-based distro instead of Ubuntu. :)


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Kurgan
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22 Sep 2014, 12:52 pm

DRzero wrote:
I admit I don't have a great reason for learning Linux, but eventually I'd like to get into cybersecurity and hacking.

I'm considering getting rid of Ubuntu and installing some Arch Linux distro. Any advice? I'm a newb, and I think I'm not alone in finding installing Linux much harder than using it.


I recommend Antergos. :) It's both stable and fast--and very easy to install.


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DRzero
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22 Sep 2014, 6:02 pm

Thanks, I'll look into Antergos (and probably end up installing it).

Last night I perused the Arch Linux Web pages, and I really like their philosophy of minimalism and giving the user control.


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mrrhq
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23 Sep 2014, 2:26 am

I dunno. I like Debian better.
Debian is really easy to get into. It's like a barebones version of Ubuntu. You have the APT package manager, which is absolutely amazing in every area. Pretty much comparable to BSD ports and packages. You can do everything with it. The pacman manager and AUR is a poor way of doing things since it's just something simple written in Python, and the AUR encourages third-party software, which may not be trusted. It may even contain proprietary software.

To avoid that, the Debian team is more strict on what software is added to their repos. They already have thousands of packages, so no need to worry. If you only use the free repos in Debian, then you're not running any proprietary software. Many BSD systems also do not have proprietary software in them too, but I can't be sure about it. The DFSG ensures they the will not include any proprietary software if you use the free repos. if you care about your software freedom, use Debian and stay away from Arch Linux and its derivitives.

If you must use Arch, then use Parabola GNU/Linux. It uses a libre Linux kernel. A lot of people using GNU/Linux don't know about the FSF and software freedom enough, or don't care about it. But the fact is that proprietary software cannot be trusted over any period of time. It should be avoided.

That being said, you can use Debian stable+backports if you really want a stable system, or just use Debian Sid. Stay away from testing, it's not a good choice for many reasons. If you need help with Linux problems, there tons of resources lke forums and IRC channels. I've used Debian Sid for almost 3 years now and I've never used Windows for a long time. One thing I can say is that you have to be strong-headed and be prepared to learn new concepts of computing, take a college class if you must, force yourself not to dual boot, do not even use a VM unless you have to, and get comfortable with the terminal and command shell (bash). There's no way you can avoid learning more about computers in general without knowing how to do things with a CLI. Use the Web or handbooks. FreeBSD has an excellent handbook. If you ever wanted to learn more about BSD Unix, FreeBSD is an excellent way to start, but I like Linux's driver support better, so I use it for all my desktops/laptops.

And, everyone, don't try embedded ARM/MIPS Linux since it's a pain. You'll have to update your kernel with ROM flashing or whatever, and it's just a big pain updating and managing everything nicely. Because most kernels are customised for the hardware and part of the whole package, the only BSD that ever rarely gets used on embddded systems is mostly NetBSD. The Allwinner CPU is really good though, like on the CubieTruck, since you can just install linux-image-armmp and it will pretty much work.

How do I know it will work well with Allwinner? https://wiki.debian.org/DebianKernel/ARMMP

You still have to update U-Boot yourself, but it's not so bad. It's just like a BIOS. There's no need to update that so often. If you are interested in using Debian on ARM, I suggest the CubieTruck. The RPi uses some bad firmware for the video drivers, and it's just.... kinda slow for me, stay away from it. Also the Intel NUC is an OK idea if you want to use just a little machine but don't care so much about software freedom and whatever. I personally use a Cobox-i4 and I love it. Around the same hardware as a Wandboard (with better specs) cut down to mini-size!



Kurgan
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23 Sep 2014, 1:34 pm

mrrhq wrote:
I dunno. I like Debian better.
Debian is really easy to get into. It's like a barebones version of Ubuntu. You have the APT package manager, which is absolutely amazing in every area. Pretty much comparable to BSD ports and packages. You can do everything with it. The pacman manager and AUR is a poor way of doing things since it's just something simple written in Python, and the AUR encourages third-party software, which may not be trusted. It may even contain proprietary software.


Pacman keeps it simple, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. The fact that Debian has half a billion lines of code, just shows that it's poorly optimized.

Quote:
To avoid that, the Debian team is more strict on what software is added to their repos. They already have thousands of packages, so no need to worry. If you only use the free repos in Debian, then you're not running any proprietary software. Many BSD systems also do not have proprietary software in them too, but I can't be sure about it. The DFSG ensures they the will not include any proprietary software if you use the free repos. if you care about your software freedom, use Debian and stay away from Arch Linux and its derivitives.


Arch Linux only uses signed repositories by default. You can't get any malware if you just use signed repositories.

Quote:
That being said, you can use Debian stable+backports if you really want a stable system, or just use Debian Sid. Stay away from testing, it's not a good choice for many reasons. If you need help with Linux problems, there tons of resources lke forums and IRC channels. I've used Debian Sid for almost 3 years now and I've never used Windows for a long time. One thing I can say is that you have to be strong-headed and be prepared to learn new concepts of computing, take a college class if you must, force yourself not to dual boot, do not even use a VM unless you have to, and get comfortable with the terminal and command shell (bash). There's no way you can avoid learning more about computers in general without knowing how to do things with a CLI. Use the Web or handbooks. FreeBSD has an excellent handbook. If you ever wanted to learn more about BSD Unix, FreeBSD is an excellent way to start, but I like Linux's driver support better, so I use it for all my desktops/laptops.


There are proprietary Nvidia drivers for FreeBSD, who share much of the same codebase as the Linux drivers. Generally speaking, FreeBSD should not be used for a general purpose OS, though. One great advantage of Arch vs. Debian, is that the former is a rolling release.


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30 Sep 2014, 7:44 pm

I have a tiny Nettop plugged on my TV in HDMI that I use has a media center.
And I installed Linux Mint, easy to use and it comes with a lot or propriety plug-ins, codecs and pilots, so that you don't need to install and search for all of these things. Just install Mint and you are almost ready to go.


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17 Oct 2014, 9:23 pm

InTheDeepEnd wrote:
I'm trying to learn Linux...again. It's so frustrating, just like last time. Can anyone give me any advice or encouragement? .... How did you stick with it?


Late reply, but perhaps it will help. First, read "In the beginning was the command line" (Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon has a pdf). It won't tell you how to use linux, but it will tell you the mindset of the people who created linux (and a few other operating systems), and that's going to be invaluable in reducing your frustration.

Here's a poor summary of the argument. Linux (and Unix before it) is designed to solve several classes of extraordinarily difficult problems. These are not problems like "How to run a webserver?", but rather "How to run a web server with military-grade security and auditing, while squeezing every last flop of performance out of your hardware?". If you have one of these problems, linux is an absolute joy to work with. Every aspect of the software stack can be exposed, measured, tweaked and replaced. The performance you get out of your hardware is much more limited by your skill as a sysadmin or developer than by any limitations imposed by the operating system.

However, if the problem you want to solve isn't quite that difficult and performance doesn't matter that much, you end up being lost in a machine shop that can churn out M1 tanks from scratch but isn't all that well suited to making, say, lawn furniture. And yes, it can be hugely frustrating to (if I may extend the metaphor) be asked which of three welding technologies you want to master when all you need is a damn picnic table.

So, I don't think it's a good use of your time to "learn linux". Instead, treat linux as a tool that allows you to learn about something more interesting. Here are a few projects that allow you to dive deep into the system.

1) How do you draw a fractal on the screen? (I taught myself C just so I could do this.) Now how do you draw a fractal quickly? (And for this I had to teach myself assembly language.)

2) When you compile a simple "Hello, world!" program, the binary contains thousands of bytes. What does each of those bytes do?

3) If you allow your computer to have a public IP address and log all of the traffic coming into it, you'll see all kinds of interesting port scans and hacking attempts. Where do these originate, and what is each trying to accomplish? (IPTables and Wireshark are particularly useful here.)

4) Both the Intel and AMD architecture documentation lists hundreds of model-specific processor registers, and linux exposes these via an "msr" kernel module that creates a /dev/cpu/*/msr filesystem. Poking at these registers is probably the lowest-level coding you can do (unless you work for a processor company and help write their firmware). What can you make your machine do that you couldn't do without this interface?

Once you have a hard, open-ended project in mind, Eric Raymond's "The Tao of Unix" might be worth purchasing. His "How to become a hacker" and "How to ask questions the smart way" are a little dated at this point, but still worth a read.

Most important, *nix mastery tends to be something of an oral tradition, and there's no better way to learn than sitting in an office with someone who knows more than you do. If you can't do that, you're going to have to approximate the experience as best you can.

Good luck!



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21 Oct 2014, 7:20 pm

In response to the OP whilst Linux can cause some frustrations, mainly due to windows apps not being compatible rather than the other way around, I enjoy not needing to run three or four anti malware programs. I also love the fact that there is no need to purchase anything to have a fully functioning computer complete with office suites, graphics programs, etc.

On top of this the landscape has changed in relation to hardware compatibility, I no longer need to visit the forums to get hardware working (it must be said that this was always a good experience as the forums are loaded with incredibly helpful and competent people)

So to sum up. I put up with the occasional frustration because the trade off is a stable, internet safe OS which comes complete with just about any package I could ever wish for, at no cost, unless I decide to donate.

I do have both my computers with dual boot so if. I really need to use a windows program I can.


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