? for parents - why so many kids?

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I really don't understand the judgement that people have over other people's reproductive choices. I think the interest in over-population is over-stated and generally comes off (whether intended or not) as sanctimonious. I also don't like people who pressure others to have kids when they don't want them. Is it a need for validation that I am not getting?

I think things would be better off for everyone if families did what they liked as far as family size goes and others stayed out of it.

Edited for clarity.

People have children to satisfy, by want of a better word, their own psychological needs. Simple as. Same here. Little guzzle was kind of a 'pressie'. Can't say she was an accident as such... Still. So yes, some poster mentioned it is about passing on your genes. And yes, there comes a point where I though 'what is the friggin point. I'm a funny one because I never really have been tired of life but since my teens I have been tired of living. I mean, it is pointless and boring. But I plod on and then find myself with a bun in the oven at 38. Not as if it couldn't have come earlier given the way I lived my life. Still, leaves me with 3 choices. Keep, give away (and then we think of baby P. and all the others, worldwide, before him that died through the actions of psychologically inept humans in positions of authority and trusted with the safety of children) or terminate. So we chose the first. And we're 11yrs down the line now.

Still. DD's best friend came from a family of 6 when they met. Then, over the years 2 more got added and after nr8 DD's best friends dad went to have a vasectomy behind his missus back Told her he had to sort something at the town hall

I found out cause they were forever argueing and I really thought they would split up and I started to feel uncomfortable with it all. He picked up on that and told me in private. He eventually told her 3 months or so later when it was all safe.

The youngest of the children is now 18 months and just starting to come off breast feeding. Mother is starting to crumble. She is having trouble with tight chest and having all sorts of test. The first one they have already told her the causes are likely psychological as the tests show no abnormalities.

The middle son has ADHD and ASD. He has gotten himself a saturday job recently and he is actually doing better at school than his non ASD brother.


I do, and on a bad day it really gets to me
Best I can do is to prepare her to the best of my abilities.

I live in Europe. The one thing I am brainwashing my kid to do when she grows up is to get the hell out of Europe because in 50 years time it will be a hell hole. She is game and has started exploring the world as her oyster. Her eyes are on Malta at the moment
Truth is that all that a unified Europe has led to is that every Tom Dick and Harry wants to be part of it.

Personally I am not too bothered at the moment though. We live between the cows and the corn (that they live off in winter) but over the years I see more land disappearing and the queues getting bigger if we go on days out. Housing developments look like matchboxes compared to flats built in the seventies.
I don't have background traffic noises although I do have a road in front of the house and am not totally traffic free.
I'm not sanctimonious. Just realistic.
My DD is growing up in a society so rotten to the core it really saddens me to the core.

I didn't respond to this post at first because I wasn't sure what the OP meant by a "bad situation"-- is the bad situation the large family? Is it that one of the kids has an ASD? Or is the bad situation the larger issue of overpopulation? Now that I've read all through the responses, it seems that it's maybe all of the above, as the OP's feelings come through.

I get where the OP is coming from, as far as his personal feelings about large families-- my best friend in high school came from a family like that-- I didn't like being at her house either! It was full of kids, dogs, and chaos. It was always noisy and messy and felt very out-of-control. It was a sensory nightmare. My friend does not have an ASD, but she definitely has sensory issues. By the time she left that house as a young adult, she was VERY anti-child and could not tolerate even mild noises from children or babies in public places. She was very rude and could often snap out, "get it the hell out of here!" when a child would scream or make other high pitched noises. She joined one of those anti-breeding hate sites that was briefly mentioned in this thread. It was hard to be around her because I couldn't connect her intelligence with such a vicious and bigoted attitude about other human beings. BUT I did not grow up in her house, so I have no idea what kind of effect that would have on someone. As she has aged, she had softened a bit and has even struggled with some ambivalent feelings about children (it's more complicated for women, as we near the end of our childbearing years). But ultimately she has chosen a child-free life and I think it's a good choice for her.

When I was a young adult I didn't think I would have kids either, but not for the same reasons exactly... more that I just didn't really ENJOY children. I didn't know how to talk to them and felt awkward if I had to interact with them. I also had sensory things where I hated how they always seemed dirty or sticky or smelly. They simply weren't appealing to me at all. But in my 30s I started to realize that I wanted something more than what I was already experiencing. I wanted the experience of a family, of being a parent-- I wanted the experience of helping to raise another human being. That desire overruled my apprehension about the other factors. And once I had kids I realized that it's a bit different when they are YOURS. You love them so much that you don't really mind the sticky, messy, stinky. Or at least you get used to it. You also get used to the other stuff-- the noise, the occasional moments of chaos. I have noticed that I can tune it out a lot more than I would have before. I only know that my house is *somewhat* chaotic (not in a bad way-- just full of energy) because of the way that my brother reacts when he visits. He is more affected by sensory stuff than I am, and I can tell that the normal noise & energy of children really grates on him. As it once did me. And I do, sometimes, reach my limit of what I can take and I need to put MYSELF in time-out for a sensory break (quiet time)... or you just do the age-old method of kicking everyone else outside until they wear off all that energy.

As to the issue of making things "worse" for the ASD kid... I can't agree with that. Yes, it would be different for every kid, and dependent on the specific environment, but in my family, having siblings for my oldest (ASD) kid has been a wonderful thing. He has 2 brothers who love him and aren't "put off" by his "differences" because he's just... HIM. They love him completely for who he is. They look up to him as an older brother. They enjoy him immensely. He enjoys his brothers too, even the little noisy annoying one, and we give him opportunities for personal (quiet) time if and when he needs it. I think he is SO much better with them around, than he would be without them around. If anything, it is harder on the OTHER kids, because I do have to give my ASD son a lot of extra attention for the help he needs with stuff like focusing on homework and other executive skills where he is lagging compared to same-age peers. So I always have to be mindful of giving him too MUCH attention while the younger ones fend for themselves. I wonder frequently how much harder my ASD kid might be having it if he *hadn't* had all that wonderful socialization with his little brothers before he started school. Or had all that exposure to things he can't control. I think it would have been a much greater shock and transition to the "real world".

I have seen the same positives in my sister-in-law's family, which has 4 children, the oldest of which has AS. Having 3 siblings who love him for who he is was very protective of his self-esteem and also in a tangible way, when he encountered bullying at school. His siblings were well-liked at school and that went a long way to affording him a certain amount of "protection" from would-be bullies.

I do get that the OP's experience was very different, but I don't think it's fair to then assume that it matches everyone else's experience.

As to the "why have kids at all" if we are facing overpopulation.... well, to that I guess maybe it would be the more *responsible* thing to choose not to have kids, but I dunno... I feel it's been VERY responsible of me, as a highly intelligent and highly educated person, to CHOOSE to create 3 more people who will also be highly intelligent and well-educated and do POSITIVE things for this world. It breaks my heart when I look around and see so many of my friends from college choose NOT to have children because they have "overthought" it and chosen to focus on career or whatever.. this world needs MORE smart people. Stupid people will always have children. We need more smart people to keep having children, or we will be looking at a world like in the movie "Idiocracy". (If we're not already there in some ways.)

Hate speech?lol?that never crossed my mind before. Thanks!

I always loved it when one of my gay friends would start a conversation with, "You know, you breeders are always [insert something derogatory here]" Playing the hate-speech card would have made for some interesting conversation!

^This. I've never understood why people avoid childbearing because they don't want to bring new life into such a miserable existence. It never occurs to them their children might be the ones, or among the ones, who turn that miserable existence around.


It's perfectly ok to focus on career, but there's a line. I can understand doctors/lawyers and certain other academics/professionals waiting until later to get married and make babies. It's unrealistic to say, "I'll start my family as soon as my job is stable and I can pay off the 2-story, 5-bedroom McMansion." Unless you come from money already, you won't get there before it's too late.

What I've found with having so many children, granted only 3, is that you have more pressure to work hard and be responsible because you're working for so much than just your own ambition. People WANT to hire folks and help folks who demonstrate that level of accountability in their family life, and in considering someone for a job having a family is a HUGE plus.


I completely agree the world needs more smart people. I've never understood why it is SMART people are the ones using condoms and birth control?and even worse, they are the ones most heavily encouraged to do so.

This is less about the number of children per family than the overall financial health of a school district AND its ability to predict future changes in population and demographic. Public schools must enroll every student and can't say no just because they are full. Sometimes the surge in enrollment comes far too fast to get new schools and classrooms constructed. I live in a very well off, small-average-family-size area and we've been facing that exact same issue for a while now. Predicting how many families in an area are going to have school age children is tricky business. For 30 years we had declining enrollments and properties were closed and sold off. For the past decade we've now had increasing enrollments, and even one of the wealthiest, highest rated districts in the state is struggling with how to meet the demand. You can't just acquire new property and teachers overnight. That has NOTHING to do with families choosing to have lots more kids. It is a natural demographic shift of the type communities face every day. Sometimes it is as simple as having your 40% retiree (no kids in school) population move into retirement homes and sell their houses to young families (2 kids in school x 40% of the population is a HUGE shift in numbers).

It seems obvious to me that you have a need to find a scapegoat for the negative experiences in your life. But you've picked the wrong one. The underlying problems I've sensed driving your posts are NOT caused by the need to breed, as you so indelicately put it. I have no idea how I can convince you of that, it would take pages I really don't feel like taking the time to type, but if you really want to improve your life, I suggest you stop trying to put the blame on how many kids people choose to have. That is NOT what has created the issues you see, and all you really are doing right now is building a wall between you and people who might actually care about you. That is counterproductive.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 23 Sep 2014, 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I don't think there is anything wrong with occupying a middle ground. I guess most people fit into a polarity of either really wanting kids, or really not wanting kids. Maybe a middle ground is confusing to people who view it in a binary way.

It is just as valid to want kids only under certain conditions. If obtaining or maintaining a certain economic lifestyle is more important than having kids to some people, why do other people feel the need to judge that? As long as the people involved understand that they may never reach that point, and miss out on having kids, why is that not OK if they want to take that risk? It is no less valid than waiting to find a marriage partner, being self-supporting or any other criteria a person might have.

Reviewing this thread, I think the reason people use such strong language is that everyone feels under attack, and either gets defensive or uses an "offense is the best defense kind of strategy."

If you don't want kids, then people call you selfish for not liking kids, not contributing quality DNA" (whatever that means) to the future workforce, or for preferring a single lifestyle.

If you only want one kid, then people tell you are are selfish for not providing your child with siblings.

If you have kids (or what someone arbitrarily says is too many) then you are selfish for contributing to overpopulation and for increasing the carbon footprint.

IMO it is OK to be "selfish" when it comes to personal reproductive decisions as the main people it affects is that family/person. Sure there are negative and positive externalities to society, either way; but I don't think it is necessary for people to significantly factor that in when making such a personal and life-altering choice for themselves.

Edited to include a disclaimer: I come from a small family culture and my in-laws up until my husband's generation have been a large-family culture.

Of course we care what our children have to deal with in the future. But we don't create a better future by allowing population growth from the third world and from the less educated families in our own country to overwhelm our own contributions to society; everyone's history, genetics and experience needs to be carried forward in a balanced manner, especially during times of major transition. There are far more effective ways to improve the future than simply deciding not to have any kids, unless you really aren't cut out to be a good parent in the first place, or have no desire to be one (perfectly valid choice, IMHO). But me? I may not be a perfect parent, but I've done a pretty good job by my kids, one of whom is ASD. They both are happy, smart, creative, grounded, caring people who will make positive contributions to society.

Edited per discussions, below.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 25 Sep 2014, 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I hesitated in responding to this, because I think I must be misinterpreting what you said. I live in the U.S, but as a descendent of immigrants from a prior generation, most of whom were uneducated, I don't know how else to take this. I have no idea if my DNA would be considered First World or not. I don't think it is even relevant. I don't think family size should be configured to outgun (or keep up with) other ethnic or socioeconomic groups. That seems wrong on many levels.

My attempt at a one sentence summary of a complicated topic may not have done anyone any favors, so perhaps I should just edit it out?

The thing about change (which immigration and demographic shifts are) is that it needs TIME to come into its own. I very intentionally did not try to assign an IQ to the overflowing third world populations, because there is no reason to believe that is lower and, well, I think those changes can be positive in the long run. But there is a learning curve involved when a family with limited education moves from an impoverished country to a wealthier one, and it takes time before their positive contributions to society reach their potential. For a while the influx is always a strain. And then things adapt. But there has to be some consistency in the pre-existing population to carry everyone through the period of change.

Maybe what I need is a more appropriate term than "gene pool"?

I do appreciate you asking. I would rather people say what bothers them about something I wrote than simmer in private without me ever realizing how it came across.

Uh oh. Looks like this conversation is headed towards dangerous territory. Feeling a little eugenics-ish.

Oh, don't misunderstand me. It's nobody's business but your own what you choose to do. I can't tell smart people to make more babies or stupid people to close their legs. I don't think a choice either way makes you more or less of a person.

But fatherhood made a surprisingly wonderful change in my life. I'm the one who gets to keep the little one with me at all times, the one who picks the kids up after school, the one who goes to all the class plays that happen during the day, the one who teaches them piano, the one who makes their breakfast and lunch, the one who changes 2/3 of the diapers, the one who dries the tears, the one that says prayers with them at bedtime... Yeah, I have strong feelings because I know how awesome it is and I wish everyone out there could know what this is like. So while I don't judge people for not making babies, I DO think people who judge us for having them, and lots of them, are severely misinformed. All I'm trying to do is correct some misconceptions. I'm not angry with anyone, nor am I deeply offended. It's just an awesome experience and I enjoy talking about it.

But my question is why not 1-2 kids rather than more? I mean does anyone need more? Oh, never mind, I just read your earlier answer about all there is left to do is die so you and your wife better keep 'em coming.

I've never *personally* been in the middle ground (I went from really really NOT wanting kids, to really really wanting them, to not being ABLE to have them, which then REALLY made me want to have them....) unless you mean a middle ground of not thinking either way is the "right" way, in which case I think my post came off wrong... I don't think having kids is the "right" thing and living child-free is the WRONG thing.... I just feel sad I guess that I've seen so many friends agonize over it until finally, (reluctantly in some cases) coming to the well-though-out choice to NOT have kids because it "doesn't make sense" or something... rather than making the choice on whether or not they just want kids, or don't. And then I've seen a lot of my female friends change their mind in the 11th hour, only to find out that it's too late, which is just so sad for them. I think what I've found is that the people who REALLY don't want kids, sort of know that, and it's not such a huge struggle of a decision. Whereas the people who are really ambivalent about it and find all kinds of reasons why it's "maybe not the best choice" for financial reasons or fears about mental illness in the family or whatever, it seems like (at least with the people I know personally) it turns out that deep down they actually DID want kids, but were terrified to take the leap of faith that they could be good parents and work out those details, like so many parents do. I guess I just find it ironic that the people I know who have gone through this are relatively very smart, very resourceful, financially stable, etc... and yet manage to worry themselves out of the choice because of fears of not being able to be a good parent or provider... whereas meanwhile, millions of people are just going head and having the kids, unplanned or otherwise, and most of those people work something out. I get frustrated when really smart, creative, wonderful people talk themselves OUT of parenting because they somehow fear they will suck at the job.

But people who truly want to focus on career rather than parenting (and who feel that they cannot do both)? No I don't judge them. They are following the right path for themselves, and actually I admire that they know what they want and don't just go have kids with someone without really wanting to help out with the parenting. I think it takes a lot of courage to say "no I don't want children." It scares a lot of people off, especially once you get deep into the 30s.

It's not about needs. I don't gain anything by having more than 2 kids.

The back story is my wife was an only child. My sister died the day she was born. My brother was killed when I was a baby. My would-be mother in law had health issues such that having a baby nearly killed them both, and my wife is lucky to have survived infancy. Between the two of us, we practically have no family members left alive besides my mother. So part of it is we came from large families that bottlenecked with our parents. All that's left are a few distant cousins that don't even really talk to each other. We feel orphaned in spite of our age, and we think it would be nice for our grandchildren to know what it's like to have aunts/uncles/cousins. I like that whole clan mentality.

If kids aren't your bag, then fine. I have no reason to judge you for that. But there's nothing wrong with 1-2 kids or even joining the 4-or-more club.

One GOOD reason for having lots of kids is, as I've mentioned before, is they represent your ideals after you're long gone. The more kids you have, the more assurance you have of continuing that legacy. I think of the Vanderbilt family in the US as a good example of what I mean. We're like that except without all the money! Mozart I believe only had two kids. The sad bit is they grew up in a dead man's shadow rather than standing on his shoulders, and I think maybe nobody taught them they could do that. There's nobody surviving from that family today, and I think that's a shame. The more kids you have and the more you teach them, the less of that kind of risk you run.