Why Russia is not declared war on Ukraine? I support Ukraine

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pawelk1986
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20 Sep 2014, 3:53 pm

Why Russia is not declared war on Ukraine, do not get me wrong, I support the Ukrainian side

I wonder why Putin sends to Ukraine his masquerade "separatists" and not put the matter openly.

As for the Ukrainians, I support their desire for self-determination, my mother, in turn, says that Russia is not so bad, because they defeated Hitler.

Besides some of my countrymen say it should not be forgotten that the Ukrainian nationalists from UPA collaborated with the Nazis and murdered Poles and Jews.

And that the UPA has killed more of Poles than the Soviets did.



Persevero
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20 Sep 2014, 4:02 pm

Did your mother forget about the gulag?



Jacoby
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20 Sep 2014, 4:31 pm

Why don't eastern and southern Ukrainians have a right to self-determination too? The nationalists are popular in the western half of the country but not the eastern half, the nationalists are openly hostile to any Russian influence and half the country speaks Russian.



pawelk1986
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20 Sep 2014, 4:41 pm

Persevero wrote:
Did your mother forget about the gulag?


Many older Poles still think communist was good, including my mom unfortunately.

They have blinders on, my mom says that the Communists at least care about ordinary people built apartment blocks which could afford ordinary people.

My mom says the only thing she regrets is that they joined the Communist Party because those who belonged to the party, or denounced to others to SB (Security Police), have a better apartment. My mother once joked that she could not be denounce on others because she could not then look in the mirror. But she could join the Party, that we would live now can more prosperous.

Because many former members of the Communist Party now leads the capitalist quiet life as a respected Polish businessmen :D



0_equals_true
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23 Sep 2014, 5:21 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Why don't eastern and southern Ukrainians have a right to self-determination too? The nationalists are popular in the western half of the country but not the eastern half, the nationalists are openly hostile to any Russian influence and half the country speaks Russian.


What you mean the nationalists? They are both nationalist.

You are assuming that all of of East Ukraine wants to to secede, this isn't actually the case. These thugs have intimidated and bullied people where don't agree with them. There was a peaceful counter protest when these guy took over the government building, then tugs basically beat them, and chased then and even abducted them.

Do you know the last Prime Minister of Donetsk Alexander Borodai isn't even Ukrainian nor grew up in Donetsk or Ukraine? That is part of the reason he resigned to take the focus of of him. He is stooge, but is still deputy.

Here's an idea. How about I secede my flat, after all don't I deserve a right to self determination? Isn't factionalism great?

Also it is not true that Ukrainians are broadly against the Russian culture or language. This is something that Moscow, has tried to emphasize, as well as anti-antisemitism.

There reality is such views are broadly similar as they are in Russia Federation, toward outsider, in fact in many respect the Ukrainians can be more enlightened.

It is also more than ironic the Russia bang on about fascism, when there is well established contingent of far right group, and neo-nazi group in Russia, are know to use extreme violence toward people of the Commonwealth of nations, and former Soviet Union/Warsaw pact ethnicities. Lets also not forget the Pogrums of the empire, and anti-Semiticsm of USSR. Do not forget the forced migration of the Tartars from Crimean peninsula by Stalin. Lets not forget that Ukraine was called New Russia not Old Russia under the Empire.

I do not deny some heritage and culture, but they are behaving like this is the only position that matters. Ukraine has actually had an election now. they were able to hold it even in the in the east, it was not possible in Donetsk.

It is ironic also becuase the excuse that Putin has used, is the same one the Hitler used for the invasion of Poland and Czechoslovakia. That is Fascism.

Putin model of government is also Mussolini ideals realized, where the the oligarchs toe the line he make then and he can bring them down, and Putin is personally worth 70 billion dollars, this is money they have skimmed from the Russian people. He used the cloak of nationalism and a facade of multi-party system to keep the Russian people unquestioning.



Jacoby
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23 Sep 2014, 6:35 pm

The east didn't support EuroMaidan, Yanukovych was their president. Yanukovych may of been a crook but so was Tymoshenko, that is the nature of Ukrainian politics and much of the former Eastern Bloc. Maidan drew much of its support from nationalists from Galicia who are the ideological descendents of Stepan Bandera, their genocidal Nazi aligned leader from WWII.


[img][800:701]http://i59.tinypic.com/2zqa8o8.jpg[/img]

Bandera unsurprisingly isn't very popular in the Russified east of the country which never really developed any national identity as Ukrainian which is a relatively new invention.

These rebels didn't start out demanding independence or in armed insurrection, it wasn't until the Maidan government(which overthrow their democratically elected president mind you) declared them terrorists and begun a war against its own citizenry.



0_equals_true
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24 Sep 2014, 5:57 pm

I notice you don't post the latest election result which showed all but one district in support of the president, including all those the surround Donetsk. There other contender was a moderate mayor of one of these districts.

What you say about Tymoshenko, may be true but what is the actual evidence? It has the hallmarks of a Russian style show trial. Ironically she was accused of colluding with the Russians, but the Russians weren't on trail.

Regardless she wasn't a contender anyway. She was long taken out to the story, and was a minor figure joining the protest late.

Yanukovych he could not hide all of what he pilfered, all of the backhanders, when he when into exile.



0_equals_true
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24 Sep 2014, 6:20 pm

Aslo you forget the 1991 independence referendum, which was definitive in the east and west.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_ ... ndum,_1991

Yes
Image
No
Image

Note difference between the east an Crimea, but even there support for Independence.

This recent referendum, many group boycotted it including the Tartars.



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24 Sep 2014, 9:19 pm

I'm not sure what your point is, their is obviously a divide in Ukraine that has persisted since the beginning of them being an independent country. The east of the country did not support EuroMaidan and is closer to Russia than they are the EU or Banderites.



0_equals_true
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25 Sep 2014, 12:04 pm

This is your assumption not mine.

Tymoshenko is from the east.

Why would the rest of the east vote for Poroshenko if it supported the rebels cause?



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25 Sep 2014, 2:10 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
This is your assumption not mine.

Tymoshenko is from the east.

Why would the rest of the east vote for Poroshenko if it supported the rebels cause?



I'm not sure what your point about Poroshenko's election is suppose to be, you do know there is a war going on in the east of the country? Do you think they really came out and voted and that it was representative of their views? Did you follow the election? Do you know who the other candidates were? There was no real opposition, nor is it tolerated. This is done thru legal and extralegal means; the Communist Party is in the process of being banned, the Party of Regions has been banned partially and is also being prosecuted against similarly as the CPU. Now Poroshenko wants to call for snap elections to snuff out any hint of opposition.

There are roving gangs of nationalists that can only described as Nazis in Ukraine that kidnap, beat, or worse anybody that speaks out in opposition. Look at what happened in Odessa, they burned dozens of people alive inside some trade union building, some jumping for their lives from the flames only to be beaten to death by a bloodthirsty mob of "Ukrainian Unity" supporters. You can find photos documenting all of this if you want.

The rebels would not have the success that they have had without the support of the populace, simple as that. They know all the UA's movements, there has a been a massive sabotage campaign against and from with in the UA. Ukraine has to resort to waves of conscription which are so incompetent and unwilling to fight despite vastly outnumbering the rebels in terms of manpower and equipment that they have to resort to arming far right paramilitary and foreign mercenaries as their primary fighting force. That is in fact where the rebels have gotten most their equipment, these conscripts lay down their weapons and dessert or they get surrounded and our forced to surrender.

Thankfully the war has seemingly winded down, there is a ceasefire that is holding right now. Poroshenko has admitted that there is no possible way they can win militarily which is the position we've been hearing from their military for awhile. Winter is on its way and the UA could not hope to fight in such hostile terrain, Kiev has been preparing for months for a very very cold winter with the Russian gas turned off. The current peace deal gives autonomy to Donetsk and Luhansk ensuring the use of the Russian language and allows residents to maintain ties to Russia as well as the continued presence of militia.



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25 Sep 2014, 3:05 pm

^^In Odessa, weren't separatists trying to hold the building with shotguns when it got burned down? I seem to remember a barf-worthy video on liveleak featuring a dead man in a sitting position holding a shotgun...



Jacoby
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25 Sep 2014, 3:35 pm

staremaster wrote:
^^In Odessa, weren't separatists trying to hold the building with shotguns when it got burned down? I seem to remember a barf-worthy video on liveleak featuring a dead man in a sitting position holding a shotgun...


Maidan radicals attacked and burnt an anti-Maidan encampment outside the trade union building forcing them to flee and take refuge inside the building which was then surrounded and set on fire.



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25 Sep 2014, 9:27 pm

Ukraine is pretty much Russian already. We should mind our own business. Not that Putin is a great leader, far from it. But they speak Russian, and their economy, what little of it exists, is completely dependent on Russia.



0_equals_true
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26 Sep 2014, 3:12 pm

AspE wrote:
Ukraine is pretty much Russian already. We should mind our own business. Not that Putin is a great leader, far from it. But they speak Russian, and their economy, what little of it exists, is completely dependent on Russia.


They speak Ukrainian and Russia.

I don't think Poland or the the Nordic states feel it is something just best ignored, and these are NATO member.

I think you are talking, based on ignorance of the history. You appease like Clement Attlee.