Why Russia is not declared war on Ukraine? I support Ukraine

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Jacoby
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29 Sep 2014, 9:41 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
The whole issue of the humanitarian convoy is a complete red herring.

Where you have tank and artillery battalions, where there is documentary evidence both on the ground and satellite moving in and out across the border. They really haven't got foot to stand on. It is kind of hard to hide a tank battalion on a road, and they no made attempt to do this. This area is fairly flat an open. It is not tora bora.

The humanitarian convoy was a PR exercise, nothing more.

Russia denial isn't really to fool anyone who has a the capacity to check, geo-locatate. It is to fool want to believe Russia no matter what.


There is zero evidence of about 90% of the Ukrainian's claims, they say they have some and will produce it and never do and most people in the west don't seem to follow up on it. Most of the so called evidence produced by NATO and Ukrainian government are social media posts which have no credibility and have been caught faked on numerous occasions. When you've followed the entire conflict and took in information from all sides as I have, it becomes abundantly clear that you can't trust anything coming from NATO and the government in Kiev.

Let me take a step back and say what my agenda is here, I oppose war and find it abhorrent. I find US interventionism to be more often than not harmful in the long run to our interests and to the people we're supposedly helping, I believe that our government lies in order to justify its actions and even takes an active role in creating these crises to pursue their own ends. The world isn't some chessboard, these things effects the lives of real people just like you and me. When you talk about nuclear war as anything but a defensive last resort then I have to question your sanity. If that's what you threaten then what moral high ground do you have to criticize anybody as a global threat? Might does not make right.



AspE
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29 Sep 2014, 9:59 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
AspE wrote:
Ukraine is pretty much Russian already. We should mind our own business. Not that Putin is a great leader, far from it. But they speak Russian, and their economy, what little of it exists, is completely dependent on Russia.


They speak Ukrainian and Russia.

I don't think Poland or the the Nordic states feel it is something just best ignored, and these are NATO member.

I think you are talking, based on ignorance of the history. You appease like Clement Attlee.

The history is that they are Russia. The other states depend on Russia's oil too, which is why their complaints are hollow. If Russia invades a NATO country, then we'll see.



Andreger
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02 Oct 2014, 1:03 am

AspE wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
AspE wrote:
Ukraine is pretty much Russian already. We should mind our own business. Not that Putin is a great leader, far from it. But they speak Russian, and their economy, what little of it exists, is completely dependent on Russia.


They speak Ukrainian and Russia.

I don't think Poland or the the Nordic states feel it is something just best ignored, and these are NATO member.

I think you are talking, based on ignorance of the history. You appease like Clement Attlee.

The history is that they are Russia. The other states depend on Russia's oil too, which is why their complaints are hollow. If Russia invades a NATO country, then we'll see.


When America became independent in the result of war it became English-speaking country with lots of economical connections with Great Britain. So there is no more logic in considering American = British then in Ukrainian = Russian. I am half Russian half Ukrainian and I know thet they always were rather different from each other. Temporary economic dependance can't be considered as significant factor in definition of nation's ancestry.

Even genetically Ukrainians are Europeans while Russians have significant addition of mongoloid race since they were conquered by Mongol Hordes in medieval and were remaining part of mongol Empire for centuries. You maybe don't know that principality of Moscow was one of shards of Mongol empire became independent just in XVI century.

At the same time Ukraine was remaining part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.



pluto
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02 Oct 2014, 2:58 pm

AspE wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
AspE wrote:
Ukraine is pretty much Russian already. We should mind our own business. Not that Putin is a great leader, far from it. But they speak Russian, and their economy, what little of it exists, is completely dependent on Russia.


They speak Ukrainian and Russia.

I don't think Poland or the the Nordic states feel it is something just best ignored, and these are NATO member.

I think you are talking, based on ignorance of the history. You appease like Clement Attlee.

The history is that they are Russia. The other states depend on Russia's oil too, which is why their complaints are hollow. If Russia invades a NATO country, then we'll see.


Some Russians may consider Ukrainians to be 'little Russians',but it's not what Ukrainians think.Europe appeased Hitler when he laid claims to the German-speaking area of Czechoslovakia and that situation escalated. I don't know how much direct involvement Putin's government has in backing the rebels,but if it's at least just standing aside without actively deterring them then I wonder what's next- the Russian speaking areas of the Baltic states and Kazakhstan possibly.


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0_equals_true
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02 Oct 2014, 4:38 pm

Jacoby wrote:
There is zero evidence of about 90% of the Ukrainian's claims, they say they have some and will produce it and never do and most people in the west don't seem to follow up on it. Most of the so called evidence produced by NATO and Ukrainian government are social media posts which have no credibility and have been caught faked on numerous occasions. When you've followed the entire conflict and took in information from all sides as I have, it becomes abundantly clear that you can't trust anything coming from NATO and the government in Kiev.


The evidence of tank columns can be checked an Geo-located. The satellites evidence can be check via enthusiast who check commercial satellite . It wouldn't surprise me it is on Russian satellite imagery data. Why would an Russian paratrooper battalion be in Ukraine specifically with their insignia removed, then the Russian said "oh sorry they were lost".

Where did the rebel get antiaircraft missiles to take down Ukrainian airforce, which they boasted of downing several? These aren't the kind o weapon that are just hanging around.


Jacoby wrote:
Let me take a step back and say what my agenda is here, I oppose war and find it abhorrent. I find US interventionism to be more often than not harmful in the long run to our interests and to the people we're supposedly helping, I believe that our government lies in order to justify its actions and even takes an active role in creating these crises to pursue their own ends. The world isn't some chessboard, these things effects the lives of real people just like you and me. When you talk about nuclear war as anything but a defensive last resort then I have to question your sanity. If that's what you threaten then what moral high ground do you have to criticize anybody as a global threat? Might does not make right.


Where did I mention nuclear, at all? In fact I castigated another member for suggestion of nuking the Russian fleet, I pointed out that the whole point of nuclear submarine is one is always out, and not always traceable or reachable. The Russians did the first before the American and Brits. If you find war abhorrent why don't you condemn Putin's aggression at least? Don't you think we should also learn form history, for instance Stalin and the USSR moving through Europe.



Jacoby
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02 Oct 2014, 5:27 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
There is zero evidence of about 90% of the Ukrainian's claims, they say they have some and will produce it and never do and most people in the west don't seem to follow up on it. Most of the so called evidence produced by NATO and Ukrainian government are social media posts which have no credibility and have been caught faked on numerous occasions. When you've followed the entire conflict and took in information from all sides as I have, it becomes abundantly clear that you can't trust anything coming from NATO and the government in Kiev.


The evidence of tank columns can be checked an Geo-located. The satellites evidence can be check via enthusiast who check commercial satellite . It wouldn't surprise me it is on Russian satellite imagery data. Why would an Russian paratrooper battalion be in Ukraine specifically with their insignia removed, then the Russian said "oh sorry they were lost".

Where did the rebel get antiaircraft missiles to take down Ukrainian airforce, which they boasted of downing several? These aren't the kind o weapon that are just hanging around.


Jacoby wrote:
Let me take a step back and say what my agenda is here, I oppose war and find it abhorrent. I find US interventionism to be more often than not harmful in the long run to our interests and to the people we're supposedly helping, I believe that our government lies in order to justify its actions and even takes an active role in creating these crises to pursue their own ends. The world isn't some chessboard, these things effects the lives of real people just like you and me. When you talk about nuclear war as anything but a defensive last resort then I have to question your sanity. If that's what you threaten then what moral high ground do you have to criticize anybody as a global threat? Might does not make right.


Where did I mention nuclear, at all? In fact I castigated another member for suggestion of nuking the Russian fleet, I pointed out that the whole point of nuclear submarine is one is always out, and not always traceable or reachable. The Russians did the first before the American and Brits. If you find war abhorrent why don't you condemn Putin's aggression at least? Don't you think we should also learn form history, for instance Stalin and the USSR moving through Europe.


Most of the heavy equipment has been captured from the Ukrainian military or paramilitaries. Poroshenko himself has said that 60% of the country's military equipment has been lost in the east and obviously hasn't all been destroyed. Eastern Ukraine actually was the heart of the Soviet weapon's production as well, much of this equipment was actually built in this locale. All evidence of direct Russian involvement circumstantial and doesn't prove anything since it all comes from NATO and the Ukrainian government.

I do not believe Putin is waging aggressive war so I don't feel the need to condemn him over it obviously, I believe that the US is the expansionist player in this game. Look at how NATO and the EU have grown compared to these alleged Russian imperialism in places like Transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and now eastern Ukraine. It doesn't even compare, one doesn't even have to wonder about what response hostile foreign encroachment into the US sphere of influence would result in. I believe in self determination and the US claims to as well but in reality it is only when the situation fits their interests. There is no legitimate way to oppose support the self determination of people in the proclaimed Novorossiya but support in the Kosovo, you can try to pretend it is different but it really isn't. The difference was the Serbia was aligned with Russia whereas Ukrainian nationalists are openly hostile towards them.



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02 Oct 2014, 5:29 pm

Andreger wrote:
AspE wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
AspE wrote:
Ukraine is pretty much Russian already. We should mind our own business. Not that Putin is a great leader, far from it. But they speak Russian, and their economy, what little of it exists, is completely dependent on Russia.


They speak Ukrainian and Russia.

I don't think Poland or the the Nordic states feel it is something just best ignored, and these are NATO member.

I think you are talking, based on ignorance of the history. You appease like Clement Attlee.

The history is that they are Russia. The other states depend on Russia's oil too, which is why their complaints are hollow. If Russia invades a NATO country, then we'll see.


When America became independent in the result of war it became English-speaking country with lots of economical connections with Great Britain. So there is no more logic in considering American = British then in Ukrainian = Russian. I am half Russian half Ukrainian and I know thet they always were rather different from each other. Temporary economic dependance can't be considered as significant factor in definition of nation's ancestry.

Even genetically Ukrainians are Europeans while Russians have significant addition of mongoloid race since they were conquered by Mongol Hordes in medieval and were remaining part of mongol Empire for centuries. You maybe don't know that principality of Moscow was one of shards of Mongol empire became independent just in XVI century.

At the same time Ukraine was remaining part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.


America had vast resources and could sustain independence. Ukrainians will be burning the furniture this winter to keep warm. Putin isn't Hitler.



0_equals_true
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02 Oct 2014, 6:41 pm

Jacoby I think you are being willfully naive.

As I pointed out, the rebel lead was originally Russian nothing to do with Ukrainian Russians.

The weapons that the rebel have used hare quite specific weapons. Note that rebel don't have an arm, yet they got specific military technology to take down Ukrainian planes, which they then boasted about.

Then there was the paper trail of the Russian equipment.

I pointed out that there is documented traffic across the border, including tank and artillery pieces. There only cloak over this is the anti-think media haze they have attempted to put out.



Jacoby
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02 Oct 2014, 7:31 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Jacoby I think you are being willfully naive.

As I pointed out, the rebel lead was originally Russian nothing to do with Ukrainian Russians.

The weapons that the rebel have used hare quite specific weapons. Note that rebel don't have an arm, yet they got specific military technology to take down Ukrainian planes, which they then boasted about.

Then there was the paper trail of the Russian equipment.

I pointed out that there is documented traffic across the border, including tank and artillery pieces. There only cloak over this is the anti-think media haze they have attempted to put out.


Ukraine's military equipment was almost all inherited from Soviet Union, nothing the rebels have do the Ukrainians not have. Most of the aircrafts that have been shot down have been shot down with old Soviet SA-7 or SA-18 which are shoulder mounted SAMs similar to our Stinger missiles. The Ukrainians have also received significant armament in the last year from Poland and Hungary so anything those 3 countries have could plausibly be had by the rebels as well.

The are many mercenaries and foreign volunteers fighting for both sides, it isn't evidence of direct involvement. I'd like to see proof of Russian involvement that isn't circumstantial or comes from a bias source, I haven't seen anything convincing.



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03 Oct 2014, 1:13 am

AspE wrote:
Andreger wrote:
AspE wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
AspE wrote:
Ukraine is pretty much Russian already. We should mind our own business. Not that Putin is a great leader, far from it. But they speak Russian, and their economy, what little of it exists, is completely dependent on Russia.


They speak Ukrainian and Russia.

I don't think Poland or the the Nordic states feel it is something just best ignored, and these are NATO member.

I think you are talking, based on ignorance of the history. You appease like Clement Attlee.

The history is that they are Russia. The other states depend on Russia's oil too, which is why their complaints are hollow. If Russia invades a NATO country, then we'll see.


When America became independent in the result of war it became English-speaking country with lots of economical connections with Great Britain. So there is no more logic in considering American = British then in Ukrainian = Russian. I am half Russian half Ukrainian and I know thet they always were rather different from each other. Temporary economic dependance can't be considered as significant factor in definition of nation's ancestry.

Even genetically Ukrainians are Europeans while Russians have significant addition of mongoloid race since they were conquered by Mongol Hordes in medieval and were remaining part of mongol Empire for centuries. You maybe don't know that principality of Moscow was one of shards of Mongol empire became independent just in XVI century.

At the same time Ukraine was remaining part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.


America had vast resources and could sustain independence. Ukrainians will be burning the furniture this winter to keep warm. Putin isn't Hitler.


Washington was taken in 1812 and burnt by Briish forces - so temporary difficulties with army in first decades of independence is okay.
And Ukraine wouldn't have difficulties with natural gas - they have supplies from Poland, ROmania and Hungary and almost filled their storages.
That's Russians who whould eat snow and drink petrol this winter - in Moscow prices are grown twice on some food since January, miner and medic hunger strikes are already strated, pensions reduced and lots of companies no longer hiring any personnel. For every Russian that's obvious - but most of them here are too alligned themselves with Putin like germans with Hitler in 1938 to admit it.



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03 Oct 2014, 1:11 pm

Jacoby wrote:
The are many mercenaries and foreign volunteers fighting for both sides, it isn't evidence of direct involvement. I'd like to see proof of Russian involvement that isn't circumstantial or comes from a bias source, I haven't seen anything convincing.


In others word you are a contrarian, you don't trust one side, so the opposite must be true an not 'biast'. Smart.

There are captured grad missiles, with a log book, which we know has been in storage in Russian for the past 20 years, then there BUK launcher which was filmed crossing the boarder and this can be Geo-located. Those investigating the dead paratrooper in Russia, got some admissions from some of the family such as Valeria Sokolova, when they investigated further they were attacked, and had their hardrives wiped. Also also when they called on other family member, they found unknown. Plaque mysteriously taken away from graves of the soldiers, but they had already recorded them.

If you have nothing to hide you don't behave like so. The issue of dead soldiers, should be easily solved.



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03 Oct 2014, 1:12 pm

Anyway history will tell, these conspiracies get out eventually.



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03 Oct 2014, 4:57 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The are many mercenaries and foreign volunteers fighting for both sides, it isn't evidence of direct involvement. I'd like to see proof of Russian involvement that isn't circumstantial or comes from a bias source, I haven't seen anything convincing.


In others word you are a contrarian, you don't trust one side, so the opposite must be true an not 'biast'. Smart.

There are captured grad missiles, with a log book, which we know has been in storage in Russian for the past 20 years, then there BUK launcher which was filmed crossing the boarder and this can be Geo-located. Those investigating the dead paratrooper in Russia, got some admissions from some of the family such as Valeria Sokolova, when they investigated further they were attacked, and had their hardrives wiped. Also also when they called on other family member, they found unknown. Plaque mysteriously taken away from graves of the soldiers, but they had already recorded them.

If you have nothing to hide you don't behave like so. The issue of dead soldiers, should be easily solved.


Circumstantial evidence proves nothing especially if it comes from easily manipulated sources like social media, there is evidence that says the exact opposite as well so it is a question of who do you believe. The Ukrainians have multiple Buk missile systems near the border with Russia so even if the rebels possess it(which there is no concrete evidence of), it is plausible that they captured it. This is despite the fact that the rebels have no aircraft but apparently the Ukrainians fear Russian invasion. What do international observers say about the validity of all these Russian troops or weapons crossing the border? Why would you believe anything trumpeted by the Ukrainian propaganda arm? It doesn't really matter regardless to me, self determination is what's moral.



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03 Oct 2014, 6:00 pm

As I said, this can be investigated, and this is not from social media, this is from investigative journalists who tried to find out what actually happened to these Russian soldier who weren't fighting in Ukraine apparently. How an where did they die? Given the admission by the soldier's actual families I think that should be followed up further.

By the same argument you could say that the rebels are not representative, the evidence they are is disputed.

Why should one group of people with guns, setting up their own rouge state and professing to representative, be taken seriously as political will of the people?

Self-determination according the UN is people of a nation, or sovereign territory choosing its path. It doesn't include arbitrary secessions. That is why these sort of territories rarely get recognition, and only after many years.

Th UN also doesn't support Russia's more plastic view of nationhood who where it can use its "sphere of influence" to violate teh sovereignty of nations, and go against self determination by any reasonable definition.

Tbh Jacoby I don't believe you, I don't believe you are acting out of conscientious objection, and sense of fairness. I don't buy it. I believe your view is a really protest, and contrarian position. I can understand why that is given recent history, but I would suggest it is a simplistic and not pragmatic world view. I also think you don't really believe the denials either, not outright. I think you have consider the possibility that they are involved, but you feel this is somehow more acceptable for them and like you say you "don't care". Like a "redress" of grievances, it is fair game.

If you were consistent you would also condemn the actions of these rebels also. You would also rate the Putin based on how he has behaved as well as the western leaders, particularly his record on democracy and human rights.



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03 Oct 2014, 7:16 pm

I don't think it is an arbitrary secession, the divide in Ukraine was clearly evident long before this conflict and there was an illegal coup in Kiev so I think the calls for self-determination are completely legitimate. How does this not follow the precedent set by Kosovo? I oppose US interventionism as well as Ukraine's so called ATO which has so often targeted civilians, killing more than even the worst allegations thrown against Yanukovych.

Castigating the rebels or Putin specifically serves what purpose? Do I think Putin is type of leader I would want if he were American, no but I didn't vote for Obama either. Putin has acted as a valuable counterweight to US foreign policy in recent years for which I am grateful, I think demonizing him over issues like gay rights and concentration of power seems rather selective and hypocritical given who we are and who our supposedly allies are. The rebels haven't shelled or dropped bombs on civilian areas, they fought honorably against the UA and have allowed them safe passage away from the battlefield and humanely treated their POW. I think my position is pretty easy to understand given that I think the rebel cause in eastern Ukraine is just and that I am an American most concerned about what America is doing. The US is just as involved if not more than Russia so how can I hold them to a standard that we don't hold ourselves to? The implication seems to be if I were to condemn the rebels and Putin that it justifies the US/NATO/EU's position which I don't believe.