Blog entry defending Stapleton attempted murder down players

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PlainsAspie
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22 Sep 2014, 11:18 am

http://www.stuartduncan.name/autism/dec ... /#comments

Murder is always wrong, no if ands or buts about it, and no factors make it less wrong. This is the same tortured logic used when suggesting rape victims are partly at fault for drinking too much, not using the buddy system, or wearing provocative clothing.

I'm fine with talking about the need for more services, but that should be separate from talking about crimes against autistic people.

Think this is an isolated incident? That piece of s**t Andrew Wakefield is making a movie saying Alex Spourdalakis's mother didn't really kill him, it was the medical establishment. I won't dignify that story by posting links. Google it if you're interested.

If Aaron Hill was beaten by a parent or caregiver or if a parent/caregiver dump a bucket of human waste on their son, Autism Speaks and all the so-called "warrior parents" would say it shows the need for more services.



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22 Sep 2014, 2:18 pm

You do realize Issy was giving her mom black eyes, given her head injuries and fractured skulls and pushed her down the stairs when she didn't give into her commands and she even tried to make her run off the road by grabbing the steering wheel and then knocked her out of conscious. Her attacks were triggered by being told not and not getting her way and doing what she wants and not getting what she wants. It feels like me and the rest of you re reading two different things and I keep hearing all this hearsay like "she was busing her" "She wasn't accepting her" "she is lying" and did you know she would also target her little sister too? What could the little sister possibly be doing to provoke these attacks? Or is Kelli lying again? One of her friends said issy is targeting her sister more after Kelli is gone and the dad says the opposite by saying she is doing good and has less aggression. Is the dad sugarcoating it or is Kelli's friend lying?

I do not see Issy as a victim if she was the one doing all of this. This is no different than a child killing their abusive parent or a battered woman killing her abusive husband. I know this opinion will upset people here but this is how I feel about the whole thing and I am entitled to it and all of you are entitled to yours. The Dr. Phil show wouldn't stop showing that video of Issy attacking her mom and it was horrifying and like watching a horror movie.

I have also read part of the blog too by Kelli and listened to a radio interview by her that took place one year before the attempted murder and I think there were other options like packing her bags and leaving with her two children or sending Issy to this facility for a year for her treatment for aggression and Kelli turned that down because she would miss her and it would be a year.


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22 Sep 2014, 5:11 pm

It isn't like blaming the victim at all.

It is saying that we, as a society, have to figure out how to support parents who are dealing with much, much more than they can handle.

We don't have a system for that, for helping out a parent who knows they are at the end of their rope and about to break. We expect them to simply suck it up and find their way through it.

But not everyone is capable of that.

And, so, we do need to have a dialogue about what can and should be done to help parents.

Some parents are just bad people, who would harm their children no matter what. But others literally break, after finding themselves unable to deal with what they have to face. Maybe they should just take off like the mother of a friend of mine growing up did, but that isn't as easy as it used to be; the law doesn't allow it, and they would most certainly get caught.

I don't think that recognizing the issue assigns blame to anyone. It is one of those things that just "is." The child can't help being who they are, and the parent can't help having the limitations that they have.

I have dealt on the parenting board with some parents who really, truly have it very, very hard. They NEED a solution; they NEED help. They aren't blaming their kids and neither do we when we try to help them, but we DO recognize that a situation exists that cannot be allowed to continue, for the health of everyone involved.


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22 Sep 2014, 6:34 pm

I agree 110% but I'm aware this is a losing position. I'm totally prepared to be labelled monstrous.

They're not blaming the child or condoning murder. It's not the child's fault, but the fact of the matter is: the mother couldn't handle it (obviously she couldn't otherwise she wouldn't have done that). Services could have helped the situation. You can argue that she should have been able to handle it if you want...but parents of severely autistic children were never given a "super mum" boost (or at least I wasn't)...they have a breaking point. You can wag your finger and say they are horrible people for having a breaking point all day long...but unless you invent the "super mum" boost, creating more supportive services is actually the best way to help those kids of parents who are reaching the breaking point that they're not supposed to reach. Whether you think reaching a breaking point is acceptable or not, it's happening anyway.

Personal anecdote: I have 2 severely autistic boys. One is already much bigger than me and injures me regularly and the other is increasingly aggressive as he reaches puberty. Today it was the first day of school so it was a change in routine and although I tried hard to prepare him, you can never prepare enough. My younger son was throwing the dining room chairs and I approached him and he swung the chair at my head, so the whole side of my head is swollen. I wasn't shocked and neither were my two friends who also have severely autistic children- because that's just how it is. I'm not going to kill them, but it's very scary, and there really is NO HELP AVAILABLE. That can feel very depressing and hopeless sometimes. I think my boys are great. I really do. They have a lot of good characteristics and I love them very much. My love for them is one of the reasons why it's so hard to have this aggression- I don't think they are happy either when they're engaging in this behaviour. I wish someone was helping us for myself yes, but also for them.


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PlainsAspie
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22 Sep 2014, 6:47 pm

WelcomeToHolland wrote:
I'm not going to kill them...


Even though I disagree with your assessment, I'm not going to call you monstrous and that is why. I know this is little consolation, but I hope and pray that help comes to you and families like yours.



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22 Sep 2014, 7:03 pm

League_Girl wrote:
You do realize Issy was giving her mom black eyes, given her head injuries and fractured skulls and pushed her down the stairs when she didn't give into her commands and she even tried to make her run off the road by grabbing the steering wheel and then knocked her out of conscious. Her attacks were triggered by being told not and not getting her way and doing what she wants and not getting what she wants. It feels like me and the rest of you re reading two different things and I keep hearing all this hearsay like "she was busing her" "She wasn't accepting her" "she is lying" and did you know she would also target her little sister too? What could the little sister possibly be doing to provoke these attacks? Or is Kelli lying again? One of her friends said issy is targeting her sister more after Kelli is gone and the dad says the opposite by saying she is doing good and has less aggression. Is the dad sugarcoating it or is Kelli's friend lying?

I do not see Issy as a victim if she was the one doing all of this. This is no different than a child killing their abusive parent or a battered woman killing her abusive husband. I know this opinion will upset people here but this is how I feel about the whole thing and I am entitled to it and all of you are entitled to yours. The Dr. Phil show wouldn't stop showing that video of Issy attacking her mom and it was horrifying and like watching a horror movie.

I have also read part of the blog too by Kelli and listened to a radio interview by her that took place one year before the attempted murder and I think there were other options like packing her bags and leaving with her two children or sending Issy to this facility for a year for her treatment for aggression and Kelli turned that down because she would miss her and it would be a year.


I wouldn't see it as wrong if a child killed their abusive parent or a battered woman killing her husband....id see them having been abused as wrong, not entirely sure the legal system entirely agrees with me but hey, that is my opinion. Also just personal opinion but I think Dr .Phil is full of crap.


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23 Sep 2014, 5:59 am

God, I never knew Issy did all that. Wow!

Maybe both mother and daughter need help.the mother should do time but maybe in a hospital


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23 Sep 2014, 8:01 am

WelcomeToHolland wrote:
I agree 110% but I'm aware this is a losing position. I'm totally prepared to be labelled monstrous.

They're not blaming the child or condoning murder. It's not the child's fault, but the fact of the matter is: the mother couldn't handle it (obviously she couldn't otherwise she wouldn't have done that). Services could have helped the situation. You can argue that she should have been able to handle it if you want...but parents of severely autistic children were never given a "super mum" boost (or at least I wasn't)...they have a breaking point. You can wag your finger and say they are horrible people for having a breaking point all day long...but unless you invent the "super mum" boost, creating more supportive services is actually the best way to help those kids of parents who are reaching the breaking point that they're not supposed to reach. Whether you think reaching a breaking point is acceptable or not, it's happening anyway.

Personal anecdote: I have 2 severely autistic boys. One is already much bigger than me and injures me regularly and the other is increasingly aggressive as he reaches puberty. Today it was the first day of school so it was a change in routine and although I tried hard to prepare him, you can never prepare enough. My younger son was throwing the dining room chairs and I approached him and he swung the chair at my head, so the whole side of my head is swollen. I wasn't shocked and neither were my two friends who also have severely autistic children- because that's just how it is. I'm not going to kill them, but it's very scary, and there really is NO HELP AVAILABLE. That can feel very depressing and hopeless sometimes. I think my boys are great. I really do. They have a lot of good characteristics and I love them very much. My love for them is one of the reasons why it's so hard to have this aggression- I don't think they are happy either when they're engaging in this behaviour. I wish someone was helping us for myself yes, but also for them.


Any that do, are as*holes.

I actually slightly disagree with you. I don't think parents should be getting support, I think the kids and AS people in general should be getting more support. I don't think parents should be expected to do it all, but right now, you have to be a parent and then some, it shouldn't be like that. Aggression for example, aggression is absolutely not inherent to the AS, no more than it is for NTs, yet it's treated as part and parcel of the AS. Not just depression and anxiety, 2 in 3 contemplating suicide etc etc, but also this aggression is considered normal (for AS people) somehow -- It's not. Aggression and anger, is always a symptom of something else, frustration for example. There's just no support, no counseling, no advice, no program, no nothing, for whatever is going on in the child's life, instead it's; "Oh well, that aggression, that's just AS." or worse, seen as bad parenting. There does need to be a whole lot more support.

School is a classic example. Stupidly long hours of being in a cramped room with a ton of screaming kids. Sounds good for AS people? It's not. There's no program or help to survive any of that, and the "solution" is usually to be in class less, and fall by the wayside in terms of education. Same with meltdowns, the best that's on offer, is to let the child go home.

Just you wait until they're adults, you watch how quickly they drop support. Those rat bastards in parliament will (if they're lucky) give them pittance, dust off their hands, then continue sitting on their fat asses.

With stories like these, I have to work overtime to put out a good impression for AS people. Overtime to be the most civil, the most compassionate, the most respectable, so as to repair the reputation of AS people everywhere, so someone doesn't unfairly get put in the violent bastard category. It's strange, but people will look at the worst case, view that person as a representative, and say "That's AS." They'll look at kids going through puberty or being violent or whatever, and go "That's AS." No, it's a snapshot of a kid. No, it's this one person, in one situation. It's amazing how easy it is for people to think AS people are a disease with just crap. How many NTs are judged by what one NT kid does?

Now here's my personal anecdote: With my eyes, I've seen a whole lot of aggression, savagery, and barbarism, not committed by AS people, but exclusively by NTs. From that alone, one could very easily conclude that NTs are unpredictable, violent savages.



Last edited by Moromillas on 23 Sep 2014, 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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23 Sep 2014, 8:07 am

I think parent most definitely should get support. so should children on the spectrum.

Parents that get more support can give there ASD children more support as well


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PlainsAspie
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23 Sep 2014, 9:20 am

When a man beats his wife (whether they are NT or on the spectrum), stress might be a factor. Policies that help workers balance work and family might reduce stress. Still, you don't see the media talking about how we need policies to help balance work and family whoever they report on a domestic violence situation. If they did, they'd be rightly ostracized for minimizing the abuser's responsibility for his actions, trivializing the vitims's plight, and perpetuating the soft bigotry of low expectations.



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23 Sep 2014, 11:16 am

If anything for me, as a person who lived most of his life in real life flesh and blood interaction, this whole issue shows just how crippling the condition of Autism can be in terms of cognitive empathy.

Human beings INNATELY care about each other and try to relate to the pain and suffering of others and end it, no matter what that takes.

It's really as simple as that, no matter who it is, child or adult.

And not to be able to understand that Is truly the saddest part of all of this in my best estimation.

And it's truly impossible to explain this to some folks, no matter how many or few words are used.

That is part of the human condition. But it's like trying to cross a river with no bridge and not having the 'strength' to swim
across if for many folks it seems, on the autism spectrum, but no, not all, as empathy of any kind is not a problem at all for some folks
on the spectrum. In fact, it can be a strong and unconditional one of STRENGTH instead of weakness.

And the sad thing is, again, my comment here will be absolutely meaningless to some folks, but yes, I for one, personally know WHY.

It's always the 800LB gorilla in the room, in these type of discussions that most people are afraid to bring up. But I for one, am not; afraid to do it.

The ASAN organization and some other folks have been trying to limit human empathy; both cognitive and affective. IN the REAL world of human being that does not and will never work. It's amazing to me these discussions even get attention. But they do in some niches on the internet.


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23 Sep 2014, 2:37 pm

I have empathy. I could put in several paragraphs trying to prove that, but frankly I don't owe that to anyone, so I will not engage in an argument about whether I have empathy.



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23 Sep 2014, 2:50 pm

I am glad to have opened this thread and see no one is mad at me. Sometimes I am too afraid to express my opinions if they are different than everyone. I wonder if there are any other people on the spectrum who share this same view as me but are also too afraid to express it. This is a controversial topic among us.


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23 Sep 2014, 3:47 pm

PlainsAspie wrote:
When a man beats his wife (whether they are NT or on the spectrum), stress might be a factor. Policies that help workers balance work and family might reduce stress. Still, you don't see the media talking about how we need policies to help balance work and family whoever they report on a domestic violence situation. If they did, they'd be rightly ostracized for minimizing the abuser's responsibility for his actions, trivializing the vitims's plight, and perpetuating the soft bigotry of low expectations.



Reading this over and over, you make a very good point. The abuser is always given treatment and help to help manage their anger and outbursts and their trauma and the victim is never blamed, perhaps Kelli should do some time too and get help with her own trauma as well and her PTSD. No one is ever given support to improve their situation and life whatever is targeting their abuse.

But unfortunately very few abusers think they are at fault and knowledge they have an issue and need help and most of them seem to think it's their victim who is pushing their buttons and are doing it intentionally to set them off. Kelli on the other hand seemed to show remorse and regrets her action and thinks she should be behind bars and doesn't think she is worthy to ask for forgiveness. But some people thought that was all an act she did on the Dr. Phil show to manipulate people who are watching it.


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23 Sep 2014, 8:12 pm

League_Girl wrote:
I am glad to have opened this thread and see no one is mad at me. Sometimes I am too afraid to express my opinions if they are different than everyone. I wonder if there are any other people on the spectrum who share this same view as me but are also too afraid to express it. This is a controversial topic among us.


Yes, most definitely there is, as on some so called Autism support sites, there are pre-qualified statements that any disagreement about it, will result in banning.

The sad part of this is that many folks on the spectrum can find no support in real life. I as a permanently disabled person with illness, was not able to go into the real world and make real contact there, so this site was one of my only opportunities to connect to human beings at all. Given that, I was always skating on egg shells not to get anyone too 'butt hurt' over my opinions that were often polar opposite to what I saw as really ridiculous, after adapting in the real world for so many decades.

I have a full life now, away from this website, so I only come here now to give straight talk, and I do not pull any punches about what I see as simple truth. In my opinion, so called autism support sites, only give support to folks who agree with the 'herd' opinion. And that is not a way of life for me at all. There is no real way I could find connection here, as seriously, different ways of thinking are rarely openly accepted. And for folks with intellectual disabilities, including learning disabilities, they are often ostracized by intellectual bullies over and over and over. That part literally makes me sick, and I cannot stay quiet about it.

And yes, that is to be expected overall for people who have difficulty with theory of mind. It's really no different than intellectual disability per severity, and in some ways more challenging in REAL LIFE. I take it very seriously but if the problem is never identified, there is little to no chance for improvement.

I got the practice I needed over decades of real adaption in real life, to gain mine. as is. It's far from perfect, but I get by in REAL LIFE just fine now that I am healed of my physical disabilities. Autism was never a real challenge to me, compared to all the physical illnesses I have endured. I never complained about any of it here. There is no use in complaining about it, in my estimation. Not even the physical illnesses, as people don't want to hear negativity; in REAL LIFE, THAT'S for sure.


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23 Sep 2014, 10:04 pm

Moromillas wrote:
Aggression for example, aggression is absolutely not inherent to the AS, no more than it is for NTs, yet it's treated as part and parcel of the AS. Not just depression and anxiety, 2 in 3 contemplating suicide etc etc, but also this aggression is considered normal (for AS people) somehow -- It's not. Aggression and anger, is always a symptom of something else, frustration for example. There's just no support, no counseling, no advice, no program, no nothing, for whatever is going on in the child's life, instead it's; "Oh well, that aggression, that's just AS." or worse, seen as bad parenting. There does need to be a whole lot more support.


With regard to it being not all autism: I agree and the good news, I went to a conference about autism last summer ('13) which was primarily for professionals (and some parents obviously) and this one was one thing they were stressing- do not assume all negative behaviours are associated with autism. SO hopefully this is something people will start practising more.

I feel the aggression from my kids is actually partly related to ASD- but certainly not inherent to who they are. My theory based on my observation of my two kids, is that it is triggered by puberty hormones, but is "amplified" by ASD traits, such as lack of communication, sensory dysfunction, and difficulty with impulse control and emotional regulation. It's not that the aggression is an autistic trait- but the aggression is worsened by the autism. Does that make sense at all?


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