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beneficii
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01 Oct 2014, 10:23 am

Feralucce,

Open up your copy of the DSM-IV, go to the page of the condition named schizophrenia and look at Criterion F. Please quote Criterion F in a post on this thread.

What you will find will surprise you. I guarantee it.


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Feralucce
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01 Oct 2014, 11:24 am

You know what... never mind...

My sources say one thing, yours say another... not getting in this blender again...

As a matter of fact...I'm kinda burned on the planet.


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beneficii
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01 Oct 2014, 11:32 am

Feralucce wrote:
You know what... never mind...

My sources say one thing, yours say another... not getting in this blender again...

As a matter of fact...I'm kinda burned on the planet.


Did you go get your DSM-IV and open up the section on schizophrenia and look at Criterion F? If you didn't do that, then shame on you, because it is right there that the DSM-IV says that ASD and schizophrenia can be comorbid under certain conditions. That should have resolved this dispute.

But you didn't, and are now digging in your heels. As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.


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Feralucce
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01 Oct 2014, 1:43 pm

Not getting in this blender again, not going round and round again.

Consider your position proved...


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beneficii
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01 Oct 2014, 2:15 pm

Feralucce wrote:
Not getting in this blender again, not going round and round again.

Consider your position proved...


Good. I expected this of you, because I think you are a good scholar. I'm glad here to not have to enter the loop of presenting the same evidence over and over again to the same person who keeps covering their ears!


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Feralucce
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01 Oct 2014, 10:41 pm

beneficii wrote:
Feralucce wrote:
Not getting in this blender again, not going round and round again.

Consider your position proved...


Good. I expected this of you, because I think you are a good scholar. I'm glad here to not have to enter the loop of presenting the same evidence over and over again to the same person who keeps covering their ears!


The issue is the DSM-iv is out of date... according to the DSM-v and the idc-10... they are mutually exclusive. I just don't care enough to argue the case anymore... not just in this thread... I am tired of it all here...


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beneficii
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02 Oct 2014, 12:02 am

Feralucce wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Feralucce wrote:
Not getting in this blender again, not going round and round again.

Consider your position proved...


Good. I expected this of you, because I think you are a good scholar. I'm glad here to not have to enter the loop of presenting the same evidence over and over again to the same person who keeps covering their ears!


The issue is the DSM-iv is out of date... according to the DSM-v and the idc-10... they are mutually exclusive. I just don't care enough to argue the case anymore... not just in this thread... I am tired of it all here...


You are wrong about the DSM-5. You missed my citations of it, TWICE. Please note that this is the THIRD time in this thread that I am posting the DSM-5 wording of Criterion F of schizophrenia (which in the "full version" of the DSM-5 can be found on p. 99):

Quote:
F. If there is a history of autism spectrum disorder or a communication disorder of childhood onset, the additional diagnosis of schizophrenia is made only if prominent delusions or hallucinations, in addition to the other required symptoms of schizophrenia, are also present for at least 1 month (or less if successfully treated).


Please pay close attention to my sources so that I don't have to post them repeatedly. I am not posting it a 4th time in this thread.

You also appear to be incorrect with regards to the ICD-10. Here are the pages with the excludes for autistic disorder and for schizophrenia:

http://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/ ... F84-/F84.0

http://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/ ... 9/F20-/F20

Note that neither excludes the other. Neither does schizophrenia exclude Asperger's syndrome or pervasive development disorder, unspecified. Asperger's syndrome and pervasive developmental disorder, unspecified, do not exclude schizophrenia either:

http://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/ ... F84-/F84.5

http://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/ ... F84-/F84.9

Now, there is a proviso in practice, I've heard. Raziel, a long-time poster who unfortunately has not been around lately, mentioned that if you had a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome and you develop a single episode of psychosis, then in his country (a European country) you would not be diagnosed with schizophrenia. You would only receive the additional diagnosis of schizophrenia if you're treatment-resistant or you keep having relapses. That is the clinical judgment in his country


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Feralucce
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02 Oct 2014, 12:10 am

beneficci: I did not miss them. I read them. I am trying to disagree with you and state that I want to disagree... period. I don't want to debate this. We disagree. You have one opinion. My sources, my experience, and my opinion differs. I do not wish to debate, argue, or what ever this is... I relent... not because I am changing my opinion, but because I don't have the inclination or desire to continue it. You win. I am done.


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beneficii
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02 Oct 2014, 12:23 am

Feralucce,

You speak of being fatigued by this discussion, almost as if you consider it unfair that someone would dare refute you. Here's the thing, though: You brought it on yourself. You're the one who came into this thread with wrong information without properly checking any of your sources first.

Consider how I feel for once, having to refute repeatedly someone I thought legitimately was a good scholar and intellectually honest, to whom on multiple occasions right here in this thread I have had to cite repeatedly the same sources that refuted his assertions because he kept ignoring them.

Just sit down, chill, and read the sources I've posted. It's not the end of the world.

Under no major diagnostic system are autism and schizophrenia mutually exclusive. It has long been recognized that, though rare*, a person as an infant can develop an ASD, and then as a teenager or an adult develop schizophrenia. This article here speaks of a boy who has both autism and schizophrenia, the latter of which developed around age 7 (very early for schizophrenia!):

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/autism/ ... izophrenia

In fact, I know of at least one poster here who was diagnosed with an ASD, and schizophrenia was added later when she was a teenager (and it was clear from her postings that both diagnoses were very much warranted!).

*Though I bet that as the definition of ASD expands and diagnosis increases, this will become less rare. If you'd like, I can find more sources suggesting some interesting links.


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beneficii
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02 Oct 2014, 12:37 am

Feralucce wrote:
beneficci: I did not miss them. I read them. I am trying to disagree with you and state that I want to disagree... period. I don't want to debate this. We disagree. You have one opinion. My sources, my experience, and my opinion differs. I do not wish to debate, argue, or what ever this is... I relent... not because I am changing my opinion, but because I don't have the inclination or desire to continue it. You win. I am done.


Were that true, then you would know that the DSM-5 allows for comorbidity of autism and schizophrenia.

You're lying to me now.

Quote:
I am trying to disagree with you and state that I want to disagree... period.


You wish to disagree for only the sake of disagreeing? Why? It's clear from my citations that the DSM-IV, the DSM-5, and the ICD-10 do not support your assertions, the very same sources you claimed did support them. Why do you wish to continue misrepresenting these sources?

You may be entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.

At least whoever reviews this thread has the evidence from the DSM-IV, the DSM-5, and the ICD-10 on record. At least those watching the thread can see the full evidence for themselves. If there is anything positive to come from this thread, it's that I helped foil the spread of misinformation.


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02 Oct 2014, 10:13 am

You are attributing an emotion to my statements that is not there. You are completely in your right to disagree... there is no daring anything. We disagree. I am allowed to disagree. I am trying to say, we can agree to disagree...

I am stating that I am tired of the bickering... not in this thread... but in our entire community. The only thing that we agree on is that this all sucks for us. But we, as a community, cannot agree on a path, the causes, the facts, acceptable sources, etc. And I am tired of it all.

When we should be respectful to one another, we are rude, snotty and disrespectful asshats...

As a community, we can't even agree that we are in the same boat together.

And I am tired of it.

I came to wrongplanet because I was under the mistaken belief that it would be a place for people like me... and I was wrong.

My statements of not wanting to argue anymore have nothing to do with this discussion, but have to do with a much wider subject. I am saying, believe it... that is your right and your understanding... I can disagree with you, which is my right and understanding... I am just tired of every conversation here being an argument... I am saying wrong planet is the wrong planet for me.


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Feralucce
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02 Oct 2014, 10:20 am

beneficii wrote:

Quote:
I am trying to disagree with you and state that I want to disagree... period.


You wish to disagree for only the sake of disagreeing?

I am disagreeing because MY SOURCES DISAGREE. I am disagreeing because my opinion differs...

For the record, I respected you until you called me a liar... I have made my statements about this... and that statement kind of proves it.


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beneficii
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02 Oct 2014, 11:45 am

Feralucce wrote:
beneficii wrote:

Quote:
I am trying to disagree with you and state that I want to disagree... period.


You wish to disagree for only the sake of disagreeing?

I am disagreeing because MY SOURCES DISAGREE. I am disagreeing because my opinion differs...

For the record, I respected you until you called me a liar... I have made my statements about this... and that statement kind of proves it.


I respected you until you insisted on knowingly misrepresenting your sources, the DSM-IV, the DSM-5, and the ICD-10, after I showed you multiple times that all of them actually agreed with my position and not with your position.

Either way, the relevant cites are out. Those watching the thread know from those sources that autism and schizophrenia can be comorbid, those not pre-devoted to some weird ideal. The positive thing is that by bringing these cites out, I was able to shut down misinformation. A person with ASD who does legitimately develop schizophrenia, by this, will know that they can trust their doctor. They will not be given an ignorant reason to distrust their doctor for giving a comorbid diagnosis of ASD and schizophrenia, which false distrust would put them in greater danger of treatment noncompliance leading to a possible worsening of their condition.


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02 Oct 2014, 1:18 pm

I didn't misrepresent anything... MY SOURCES are psychiatric professionals that disagree with it. That is what I have stated since the beginning of the discussion... You called me a liar... It is possible to disagree with diagnostic criteria... which is what happened with asperger's and why it is no longer a part of the DSM... You have a valid point which I happen to disagree with due to my professional sources (people)... It is possible for us to hold differing opinions without it being an affront to one another.

So... Please stop. I am not debating... When someone tells you that you won the argument, accept it with grace...

Thank you, however, for showing me that I need to be offplanet. And this is not snark. This is an actual thanks...

I came here to find like minded individuals... and every moment of every day on this board is an argument or struggle... and I just don't care enough about it to bother anymore.


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beneficii
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02 Oct 2014, 1:23 pm

Feralucce wrote:
I didn't misrepresent anything. you called me a liar.

Please stop. I am not debating... When someone tells you that you won the argument, accept it with grace...

Thank you, however, for showing me that I need to be offplanet.


If you say I had won, then why did you say you continued to disagree?

I would think that in a debate over a fact, the winner should convince the loser.

Alas, that rarely happens on the Internet, allowing much misinformation to persist!


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02 Oct 2014, 1:29 pm

Were it not an argument, i would agree... but an argument, according to my NT consultants, does not have the goal of convincing...

I was editing my post when you responded... please go look...


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