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Skilpadde
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29 Sep 2014, 5:28 pm

This is a very interesting thread idea!

I agree with Charloz and Joe90 that there are greys and overlaps here.

I have seen aspies make assumptions on forums that aspies see something in this way, while NTs see it that way, but that does not always hold true for me. I might see it very differently, and fall into the assumed NT group view, or sometimes a mix, or a mix of one group plus something not even mentioned.
Plus a lot of things can vary with mood, situation, the people involved etc.


Again, very interesting thread, I hope it will become a long one! Unfortunately I can't think of anything more to add right now, so I'll get back to it if I do.


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DoomNGloom
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29 Sep 2014, 5:32 pm

Kiriae wrote:
I recently acknowledged there is difference about how people see gift giving. I'm not sure if it is true of all AS or NTs but that's what we think:

I (AS) give a gift to someone when I like him/her and want to make him/her happy. Eventually to show I like him/her.

My (NT) friend gives a gift to someone to see his/her reaction. He can guess whatever the person reciving the gift likes him, is just being friendly or is indifferent by looking at the person face when he/she receives the gift. It's a kind of test.


I (NT, as far as I know) give gifts because my "love languages" are touch, followed closely by gift-giving. So it's how I show love and friendship. I can't imagine giving a gift to someone unless I already knew they liked me.



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29 Sep 2014, 6:26 pm

I think the mind sets and processes for deduction are different between autistic and normal, but the power to remember is just as strong between a normal mind and the autistic one. For instance, in the car park example, a normal mind would be capable of remembering that the car was parked 5 places to the right one year ago, but the normal mind prioritizes the information in the back of the brain and doesn't recall it. The autistic mind uses the visualisation process to record the information onto a blank canvas without any filtering so that all the detail can be retrieved at any point. The normal mind of your neurotypical partner is quite capable of remembering which restaurant you took her to 20 years ago on your first wedding anniversary, what food you ordered on the menu, what you each wore including whether the suit you wore had a crease in it, the anniversary card you gave her including the exact words you wrote on the card and whether you made any inappropriate comments to the waiter.



B19
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29 Sep 2014, 6:38 pm

bl44d3lf wrote:
but in general could you describe the asperger person diffrent then the normal one .... like values and such ... )


Rather than normal/abnormal them/us dichotomies, today I'm going to use the term "two cultures" instead, for the purposes of this discussion.

Judging from what the two different cultures write and say, their aspirations are almost identical: to be loved, to be secure, to be happy, to be successful. Judging from what they do, values don't always match the stated aspirations. Well, I guess that proves both are human...

I do think that though the two cultures generally share the same group of values, the ranking of the values is different. For neurotyps, generally, (no doubt there are exceptions, there always are) status, power and money are factually the top big three values - the things n-typs appear to want and value the most, and so they design societies and political systems designed to serve these paramount values. It has been said that people on the spectrum don't care about these things.

I disagree: I think they care very much and very frequently, (we are only a different species of fish swimming in the same water after all) though I suspect that in "ASD culture" other values would rank above the status/power/money triad in terms of primary importance, possibly values like trust, honesty, fairness, egalitarianism.

It would be fascinating to know what would happen, though, if the situation was reversed: say auties had the political and numerical power that ntyps have now. There is no guarantee that power would not be the same corrupting force, though I like to think the world might be a better and kinder place.



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30 Sep 2014, 6:30 am

B19 wrote:
Judging from what the two different cultures write and say, their aspirations are almost identical: to be loved, to be secure, to be happy, to be successful. Judging from what they do, values don't always match the stated aspirations. Well, I guess that proves both are human...

I like your approach of describing the commonalities across the two cultures in terms of aspirations. I would probably qualify the notion of success as the aspiration to be successful in relation to one or more special interests.

The typical special interest is social acceptance/dominance, which relates to the values of status/power/money you mention.

B19 wrote:
I do think that though the two cultures generally share the same group of values, the ranking of the values is different. For neurotyps, generally, (no doubt there are exceptions, there always are) status, power and money are factually the top big three values - the things n-typs appear to want and value the most, and so they design societies and political systems designed to serve these paramount values. It has been said that people on the spectrum don't care about these things.

I disagree: I think they care very much and very frequently, (we are only a different species of fish swimming in the same water after all) though I suspect that in "ASD culture" other values would rank above the status/power/money triad in terms of primary importance, possibly values like trust, honesty, fairness, egalitarianism.


The open question is to what extent aspies only care about status/power/money because these are the metrics that dictate life in a neurotypical culture. I see status/power/money purely as necessary evils needed to survive in a neurotypical context.

B19 wrote:
It would be fascinating to know what would happen, though, if the situation was reversed: say auties had the political and numerical power that ntyps have now. There is no guarantee that power would not be the same corrupting force, though I like to think the world might be a better and kinder place.

The values of status/power/money would become largely redundant. I would love to live in a world where the role of status/power is confined to competitive sports, so that the neurotypical majority has a relatively harmless outlet for their drive for social dominance. Autistics could opt out of the competition for status/power, and concentrate on achieving excellence in their individual special interests, only competing against their own individual standards. Running the economy would be treated as a logistical exercise rather than as an exercise in empire building.

But such a world might not offer enough excitement for the neurotypical majority. It only takes a few psychopaths to reinvent the old sport of economic empire building, and to relapse into the familiar pattern that has been followed by all complex human societies to date. Here is an excellent book on this topic: http://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Complex- ... 052138673X.

Edit: If the number of aspies would surpass the number of neurotypicals by say a factor of 5 or more, the suggested non-competitive economy could potentially work out. The question is whether such a scenario is stable over time. Would aspies breed at the same rate as neurotypicals? Perhaps the current distribution of neurotypes is simply a reflection of differences in reproduction rates of different neurotypes. I would not be surprised if it turns out that aspie couples on average had the smallest number of offspring, mixed couples have a slightly larger number of offspring, and neurotypical couples have the largest number of offspring.



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30 Sep 2014, 6:44 am

As far as the world goes, I think there is only one reality. One set of atoms that make up all things from the ground we stand on to plants, animals and people.

There is therefore only one set of facts. But not all facts are of the same importance.

Hypothetically speaking, the one that can perceive the most important facts and make the most logical decisions and take the necessary actions has the most advantage.

The further one is from that ideal the more problematic living becomes. Not insurmountable, but more problematic.



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30 Sep 2014, 2:10 pm

Toy_Soldier wrote:
As far as the world goes, I think there is only one reality. One set of atoms that make up all things from the ground we stand on to plants, animals and people.

There is therefore only one set of facts. But not all facts are of the same importance.

Hypothetically speaking, the one that can perceive the most important facts and make the most logical decisions and take the necessary actions has the most advantage.

The further one is from that ideal the more problematic living becomes. Not insurmountable, but more problematic.


well who has most advantage asperger or normal ?

my opinon is that a normal brain have more advantage.....

what advantage does a asperger brain really have.... i think its lacking the most important part.

and if you happen to be a genius with asperger i would still consider you crippeld. because a normal person can be a genius to without the disablity.

tell your dream profession :)


if all aspergers are like me...... they are kind .... wellbalanced ....logic.... and profession helpful ....... is that true ?
how many with asperger were born with depression ?
how many aspergers act like the normal person ?
its funny for me asking this question because i get sense that all lunetic zombie robots :)



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30 Sep 2014, 4:44 pm

I a general sense, advantage normal. However, all, both normal and ASD have strengths and weaknesses. With effort and work a ASD person can compete with a normal one. One helpful thing is to take advantage of your strengths.



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30 Sep 2014, 8:49 pm

Eloa wrote:
I did see images as I am visually thinking, I see them into tiniest detail, but when asked "what did you feel" I communicated that I simply observed.


Exactly.

This is basically what I said about ASD folks seeing the world as it is, separate from an identity.

There is only one reality in the real world.
In the imaginary world of identity there are countless realities.
The imagination does not obey the laws of physics.

All identities are imaginary.

Status, power, and money(wealth) are also imaginary.



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30 Sep 2014, 8:55 pm

We humans can't see the reality as it is. We only see a representation of it.

And aspies aren't less subjective than NTs.



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30 Sep 2014, 9:07 pm

The only real way to answer this is to use generic typicals, which would not apply to most NT's or AS's.
It would be like comparing Sheldon with Obama. The differences would be glaringly obvious, but neither would be typical.


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30 Sep 2014, 9:13 pm

[quote="neobluex"]We humans can't see the reality as it is"

I agree partially, in that we only see a version of it and that it's a version heavily influenced by ourselves, our brain, our beliefs, our culture, our training, our expectations and our limitations.

However, the comment in the quote suggests that there is only one "real" reality. Quantum physics has very comprehensively demolished that belief over the past 50 years.

At the most simple level, we perceive "reality" on this planet as being made up of 3 spatial dimensions and one of time. Some physicists now suspect there may be an important fourth spatial dimension which has a powerful influence on us too, of which we are so far unaware. This is not idle speculation. There are complex scientific equations which indicate the fourth dimension of space may indeed be real. The search continues.



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30 Sep 2014, 9:27 pm

As far as I know there has not been a demonstration of a different or even altered reality. The mountain is there. None can make it not there, or taller or shorter, or pink. Only time and natural processes (in other words reality) can change things.

Imagination/Fantasy is different, but still fiction.

Mixing the two is the recipe for Mumbo Jumbo.

:P



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30 Sep 2014, 9:27 pm

B19 wrote:
However, the comment in the quote suggests that there is only one "real" reality. Quantum physics has very comprehensively demolished that belief over the past 50 years.


In my comment, could "the reality" be replaced with "this universe"?

Note that I don't know much about quantum physics (almost nothing). I prefer something more... deterministic :P



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30 Sep 2014, 9:51 pm

Real quantum physics is the most accurate and predictable means of calculating the positions or behaviors of particles, and has nothing to do with the imagination.

Some mainstream presentations of quantum theory like the "What the Bleep" movie contain massive distortions of the principles of quantum theory such as entanglement and superposition.
These are distortions that have been quickly adopted and used by many new-agers who want to believe that they create their own realities through "positive thinking".