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olympiadis
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20 Oct 2014, 10:18 pm

JSBACHlover wrote:
dianthus wrote:
NTs assign emotional values to the things they perceive. Especially the things they perceive about other people. They generate emotions to correspond to what they perceive, and they project those internal emotional states outward.

The neurological pathways in an autistic brain bypass those emotional connections. We tend to perceive things more neutrally and objectively.

Is that true? When I seeone of my sisters or friends, or a dog, I get very emotional.


I have emotions too. I just don't feel an internal need to assign extra conceptual layers to my perceptions because I feel the emotion.

The emotion is intuitive and comes from my subconscious automatically. My conscious thought is separate.



dianthus
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20 Oct 2014, 10:36 pm

olympiadis wrote:
I have emotions too. I just don't feel an internal need to assign extra conceptual layers to my perceptions because I feel the emotion.

The emotion is intuitive and comes from my subconscious automatically. My conscious thought is separate.


Exactly. Thank you, I was struggling to figure out how to phrase that.

I think NTs encode their perceptions, memories, and language associations with emotional meaning. Found a post I wrote before about this: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5983196.html#5983196



olympiadis
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20 Oct 2014, 10:40 pm

olympiadis wrote:
]
I have emotions too. I just don't feel an internal need to assign extra conceptual layers to my perceptions because I feel the emotion.
The emotion is intuitive and comes from my subconscious automatically. My conscious thought is separate.


I honestly believe that if I was getting some reward (feel-good) from a chemical reward pathway in my brain as a result of an emergent condition coming from my having processed emotions through an identity algorithm in my subconscious, then I would also be automatically adding unnecessary conceptual layers to everything that I experience.

The thing is I do not get that chemical reward for doing any such of a thing.

What happens in my subconscious has not developed in a way so that it continuously calculates ways in order to trigger the chemical reward. If it had, then I would have an elaborate multi-layered set of identity software that resides in my subconscious and filters all of my perceptions.

The chemical reward has to actually work, or the conditioning just does not take place.
We don't automatically connect up to the emergent condition I mentioned.

It's the rough equivalent of Skinner rewarding his pigeons with rocks instead of food-pellets.


Imagine that we are the pigeons in the cage that gets the rocks, but we can watch the other cage of pigeons that harm each other and themselves and they fight to continuously peck the level that dispenses the food randomly. We should be able to deduce what is actually going on below the surface of what we observe. The pigeons in the other cage would be too distracted satisfying their own imagined anticipations. I claim that this distraction is what serving identity is like.

The identity software has the ability to trigger the chemical reward, all in the subconscious.

I have a constructed simulated identity in my conscious thought that has no such ability to trigger chemical rewards. I have no incentive to filter everything through that identity software.
I simulate the identity because I'm stuck in an environment where everyone does filter everything through an identity. It's an effort to simulate what others do so I might be able to predict accurate outcomes. It is slow and has errors often.



Norny
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20 Oct 2014, 10:48 pm

olympiadis wrote:
1. Generally, autistics perceive the real world as it is.
Generally, NTs perceive the world as filtered through their identities, which are imagined.

2. Generally, autistics have intuitions about the real world, and reason their way through the imagined world.
Generally, NTs have intuitions about the imagined world, and use their reasoning ability relatively rarely.


1. I'm curious as to what you mean by this. What are you referring to as the real world? I have read you describe perception once before as something like this:

AS: This is a printer.
NT: What does this printer mean to me?

Is this accurate?

2. Your choice of words suggests that NTs do not have intuitions about the real world. I'm curious as to how you have separated this view from that of an autistic person. Additionally, would you be willing to provide examples of a situation in which an NT would not be using their reasoning ability, where an autistic would? The two lines you post are very vague and without distinction, difficult to navigate.

If you reply, I will reply, assuming that it isn't a huge post. I don't have the time (nor interest) to spend 20 minutes reading and another 50 responding, hence my statement in the other thread.


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olympiadis
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20 Oct 2014, 10:54 pm

dianthus wrote:
I think NTs encode their perceptions, memories, and language associations with emotional meaning. Found a post I wrote before about this: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5983196.html#5983196


This is pretty much what I mean when I say they filter everything through their identities.

The emotions come from deep in the subconscious.
The identity software resides in the subconscious.
Every intuition that bubbles up into their conscious thought has already been pre-conditioned by the identity software, and are the product of calculations that were automatically done using a combination of both factual sensory input AND emotion. There is no automatic separation. They would have to separate things inside their conscious thought, and I think that would be incredibly difficult for them.

The identity functions a bit like the software residing in the mind of a fish that allows it to school, or automatically mimic the movements of the other fish. They don't have to consciously calculate their movements. They don't have the time. They move based on intuition, even in the absence of any direct sensory input that suggests that they should move in that certain way.
Fish in the front of the school and the rear of the school could be getting vastly different individual sensory inputs from their environment, yet they both move in a synchronized fashion.
The movement is the footprint of a system intelligence that overrides the individual intelligence.
The identities of humans also override their individual intelligence.



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20 Oct 2014, 11:09 pm

Wow this thread is starting to make my brain hurt...



olympiadis
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20 Oct 2014, 11:14 pm

dianthus wrote:
Research has shown that NTs and autistic people do process information about faces differently. Autistic people use the same neural pathways for faces, that they use for objects. NTs use separate neural pathways for faces. It is thought that those different neural pathways may trigger different emotional responses in NTs.

I think that because NTs think in "people" they also think in "emotions." Whatever they think about, they think about in terms of other people, and the information they have coded internally about other people triggers emotions. So they tend to reason things out emotionally. They think with a kind of "emotional reasoning" or "emotional logic." That sounds like a total oxymoron, but the thing is they like to mix emotions with reason because both are less sharp or intense that way. They tend to assign emotional meanings to the things they see, that don't necessarily have any particular emotional meaning.



I think for them to operate in this manner would require a powerful incentive, because it adds many layers of abstraction to everything, and consequently hogs a great deal of the brain's processing power, - most of it being subconscious.
I claim that the powerful incentive is the peptides produced in the brain that act as a reward, such as a perception of euphoria. I think their mode of operation is evolved to try to keep them in a state that is rather euphoric for them.
I think that's why they see & describe us as being extremely depressed or just generally negative.

The chemicals in the brain have the ultimate power as far as behavior modification goes. They are responsible for driving us to breath, eat, drink, have sex, eliminate, etc... Their power is a proven fact.

I think that the ideas that get internalized subconsciously have evolved (memetics) in a type of symbiosis with the physical chemical feedback pathways inside the brain. I believe it is a system intelligence that is shared among many, and I call it the hive-mind. It resides in the subconscious and commands great power over human behavior.

It no longer requires an actual physical stimulus to result in the perception of pleasure. The imagination can make that happen using conceptual inputs instead. You can experience pleasure from dreams as well.

I think this has to be the driving mechanism for the processes we observe in NTs.

I have also equated it to the behaviors of drug addicts, though I'm sure someone will assign an unnecessary meaning to that comparison.



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20 Oct 2014, 11:36 pm

I think this thread is minimising the fact that NTs are not an homogenous group. About 34% (I have read) are Introverts, who share a number of traits with us (broadly speaking). Extrovert NTs dominate the NT introverts too, and impose the "you should be like me" rule on them also in not so subtle ways with messages we will largely recognise eg "You should get out more, socialise, network, why do you like reading books, what's wrong with you?"

Extrovert NT's seem to have so little awareness of the inherent narcissism in the attitude that everyone else should be like them; the conceit of regarding numerical dominance as equating to how everyone "should" be passes under their radar.

I rarely find this attitude in Introvert NT's. They are more inclined to be reflective and considerate of other points of view. Of course there will be exceptions on both sides - there always are.

I find I have quite a lot in common with sensitive introvert NTs, so perhaps that's my "NT" side.



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20 Oct 2014, 11:55 pm

One common difference is that Aspies often process human faces atypically, not through the fusiform gyrus which has its purpose to identify faces, but through the channel which processes objects.


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olympiadis
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20 Oct 2014, 11:57 pm

Norny wrote:
2. Your choice of words suggests that NTs do not have intuitions about the real world. I'm curious as to how you have separated this view from that of an autistic person. Additionally, would you be willing to provide examples of a situation in which an NT would not be using their reasoning ability, where an autistic would? The two lines you post are very vague and without distinction, difficult to navigate.


If human brains all ceased to exist, then all that is left is real.
If it requires another human brain in order to conceive it, then it is imaginary, outside of reality.

NTs do have intuitions about the real world, but they get filtered and conditioned (distorted by identity) before they make it into their conscious thought. Everything has to be fit into an order determined by their identities, - most often a type of hierarchy.

The conditioning that takes place in their subconscious uses conceptual products within these computations. As a simple example, their decided on (filtered) emotion is used in their subconscious computations.

example:
AS - "There is a printer"
NT - "There is my printer and it's really cool, don't you think?"

The NT version is more conditioned by conceptual layers. It also attempts to set up a type of reciprocation for the purpose of validation. They have decided to feel good. This is independent of them actually physically feeling good or not. They expect the receiver of the communication to validate to them that they do in fact feel good, or have reason to feel good, even though no real reason exists. The justification of "cool" is completely arbitrary and meaningless outside of a shared human imagination.

example:
NT - "My son finally got a Corvette"
The NT feels really great about this because it was a sought after goal that was reached, and it represents an increase in status.
The AS reasons by asking questions either internally or otherwise as to how well the Corvette will match the real needs of the son. They may state a fact such as how it may be hard to make trips with multiple passengers.
The NT will reason that this response means that the AS either has a bad emotion regarding their son, or that the AS just has a generally negative attitude about life.

The reasoning ability of the NT was used to navigate a conceptual world of imagination.
The NT's initial statement was based on assumed imagined meanings and desires to achieve positions within imagined hierarchies. The NT had no interest in the real emotions of either their son or the AS person. The NT had the expectation that the AS person would know to respond in a convincing way (emote) that suggested that they had experienced a certain emotion, - the emotion that would validate their own beliefs.

We see AS folks speaking or behaving in some of the same ways that NTs do. That's because they use their conscious thought to reason their way through social landscapes.
A bright AS person may have given the NT's statement some thought and then replied:
"hey that is really great. Corvettes are cool." which would likely have satisfied the expectation of the NT.

The AS person may not assign any meaning to that interaction, because hardly any real information was transferred in the exchange. It may all get tossed into their mental waste bin. They may not remember what type of car the son acquired, or that the car was supposed to conceptually make the son a better person.
If you ask the AS person how the NT was actually feeling during that exchange, the AS person may be unable to say accurately, or even want to venture a guess.
The AS person might make what they feel is an accurate observation like:
"He seemed like he was happy".

This is the AS person using their conscious reasoning ability to navigate a situation that the NT person navigates intuitively. The NT person navigates right through all of the layers of concept (the imaginary stuff). The AS person consciously tries to avoid the imaginary stuff.

In reality the NT could have been experiencing stomach pain or an itch, thought the implied decided on feeling may be something completely different. The AS person has no way to know for sure the specifics of another person's arbitrary decision.

I tried to be brief.



olympiadis
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21 Oct 2014, 12:05 am

B19 wrote:
I think this thread is minimising the fact that NTs are not an homogenous group. About 34% (I have read) are Introverts, who share a number of traits with us (broadly speaking).


I have heard that roughly 50% of the population is supposed to be introverts.

I think this generalization come from the social application of a "norm" to any population.
The norm is generally equated to an average.
"half the population is below average intelligence" sort of illustrates this effect.

You would have to apply a very specific cut-off criteria to establish a more meaningful percentage measure.

Yes, I admit I am minimizing and failing to recognize sub-groups of non-aspies in my posts. I'm also not recognizing sub-groups of aspies. I think the generalizations are still useful at this point, and the details of the models can be worked out at a later time when the models are more precise.



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21 Oct 2014, 12:05 am

Well, that's a good point. I do that all the time - affirm the interest of the other - even though I couldn't care less. Of course, that's also common politeness and I'm certain NTs feel the same way when they respond to others in the same situation.

The hypothesis olympiades is posing is that NTs automatically enrich their base perceptions with emotions before formulating a mental percept, whereas Aspies assign emotional content only after formulating said percept. This could really be the case. One way I've trained myself to interact in the NT world is to "prime" my emotions before any exchange with another person, so that I'm simultaneously gathering sense data while attempting to match my emotion with what I perceive to be the emotion of the other, so that I immediately assign emotional value to the data being given me.

Even if this is a false self-evaluation of my own mental process, no one would deny that those on the autism spectrum are on that spectrum because their brain wiring (and therefore manner of perceiving reality) differs from the norm.

It's


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21 Oct 2014, 10:29 am

If I may interject in response to this:

LePolardeonas wrote:
Your claim that NTs rarely use their reasoning ability is beyond absurd. The burden is upon you to provide any information that would suggest that the statement is not a load of crap.


Aside from the needless derogatory nature of the above post, what I see olympiadis proposing is not that NT's rarely use their reasoning ability, but rather that when they do reason, that they are using it in a way that is steps removed from what for the purposes of this discussion we are referring to as the real world.

They have an intuitive way of processing information that isn't really an unemcumbered, unemotional, critical thinking or analyzing process, and as a general rule do not like having to function in such a way. A study indicating that there is a preference for not having to mentally process thoughts:

Quote:
"People Prefer Electric Shocks to Being Alone With Their Thoughts"

"...subjects were wired up and given the chance to shock themselves during the thinking period if they desired. ...They?d all had a chance to try out the device to see how painful it was. And yet, even among those who said they would pay money not to feel the shock again, a quarter of the women and two thirds of the men gave themselves a zap when left with their own thoughts."

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... /373936/2/


The study didn't distinguish between NT and AS, nor did it present subjects with a challenging mental activity, but it would be interesting to see the results if they did.

It seems to me that the filtering process is continually operating in NT's, where for the AS mind, there is no problem operating on a continual basis without that filter. Makes me wonder if the electric shock in the study isn't serving in some way in the role of the filter or energizing the filter. When left to their own thoughts, the study participants found that they needed something to keep activating that filter which maybe starts to drop away without stimulus. Would need research to know for sure.


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21 Oct 2014, 3:10 pm

olympiadis wrote:
These are distortions that have been quickly adopted and used by many new-agers who want to believe that they create their own realities through "positive thinking".


Thoughts contain energy and they have an impact on your life and destiny. This is nothing new, however it isn't currently a major factor in western culture.



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21 Oct 2014, 3:45 pm

There is a difference between a) reality and b) experience of reality.

I don't think we have the capability to perceive reality as it is (I mean everyone, NT and Autistic.) We can only experience what our biology lets us. For example, the aspects of reality that a bat reacts to are different to those which humans react to (sonar, etc.)

So, to break it down to NT vs Austisic, I think there probably are experiences that are common to each group. Autistics may be aware of their environment more than NTs are, while NTs are probably more aware of the social environment, for example.

But to know another's experience of reality is probably impossible.