I see humans as pets...and why this attitude is good

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androbot01
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17 Oct 2014, 2:13 pm

olympiadis wrote:
The biggest difference being that you cannot cloak your efforts in as convincing a manner as they do.


Oh yes I can. I find them to be quite gullible. They actually believe in their personas.



corvuscorax
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17 Oct 2014, 2:13 pm

Either I don't understand any of this or there's something wrong here, because this makes me feel wholesomely uncomfortable. I would suppose that I categorize people based on their appearance if only to try to combat my face blindness, and I can be mechanical, but assuming that other people "are your pets" is a little bit of a weird thought. Perhaps as other "species" that we co-inhabit, that I'm fine with, but three things about pets that make me feel uncomfortable about this are

1) Pets are usually considered subservient to humans.
2) Pets are almost always dependent on humans for survival.
3) Pets are not viewed as equals by humans from the general public.

So viewing other people as pets holds a very negative meaning.


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kamiyu910
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17 Oct 2014, 2:19 pm

I have conflicting feelings about this... So often I feel as if I'm an alien. When I was in college, I was treated like a pet, but when the pet talked back, apparently my time as their "friend" was over. I am not like so many other people and they can tell. I find myself fighting against a feeling of superiority, as if I'm a more advanced species than they are, as if they are nothing more than simple sheep.
I know that's not entirely accurate. We're all humans, and all humans are different. Even the spectrum is so widely varied. How can one human be better than another, in a general sense? Yet I keep feeling it. It makes me want to have nothing to do with humans.


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olympiadis
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17 Oct 2014, 2:32 pm

kamiyu910 wrote:
I have conflicting feelings about this... So often I feel as if I'm an alien. When I was in college, I was treated like a pet, but when the pet talked back, apparently my time as their "friend" was over. I am not like so many other people and they can tell. I find myself fighting against a feeling of superiority, as if I'm a more advanced species than they are, as if they are nothing more than simple sheep.
I know that's not entirely accurate. We're all humans, and all humans are different. Even the spectrum is so widely varied. How can one human be better than another, in a general sense? Yet I keep feeling it. It makes me want to have nothing to do with humans.


Take an IQ test. Then I believe you will see a big part of where your perception is differing.
People find the word superior to be insulting because of their arbitrary interpretation.
In your case it means that you are viewing your environment from an elevated location, which allows you to see more than is normally seen. What you are seeing would be considered patterns (intelligence) manifested into the environment around you. Patterns reveal processes and associations. When you see them and others don't, then you are superior in that sense, though still human.

I think your experience and what you feel is pretty common for aspies.



olympiadis
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17 Oct 2014, 2:35 pm

corvuscorax wrote:
Either I don't understand any of this or there's something wrong here, because this makes me feel wholesomely uncomfortable. I would suppose that I categorize people based on their appearance if only to try to combat my face blindness, and I can be mechanical, but assuming that other people "are your pets" is a little bit of a weird thought. Perhaps as other "species" that we co-inhabit, that I'm fine with, but three things about pets that make me feel uncomfortable about this are

1) Pets are usually considered subservient to humans.
2) Pets are almost always dependent on humans for survival.
3) Pets are not viewed as equals by humans from the general public.

So viewing other people as pets holds a very negative meaning.


Well, I don't think people should think of their pets in these ways to begin with.
They are not equals, but that should in no way imply some "negative" association. That's where the problem lies.

androbot01 wrote:
olympiadis wrote:
The biggest difference being that you cannot cloak your efforts in as convincing a manner as they do.


Oh yes I can. I find them to be quite gullible. They actually believe in their personas.


I believe you but your ability is probably relatively rare in the aspie community.



androbot01
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17 Oct 2014, 2:38 pm

olympiadis wrote:
I believe you but your ability is probably relatively rare in the aspie community.


It is not something I came by naturally. My mother was the ultimate cognitive behaviour modifier.
Well, I learned my lessons well. :twisted:



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17 Oct 2014, 3:48 pm

olympiadis wrote:
I think it is wrong in principle to use those psychological manipulations. The alternative is to be extremely honest with people, and that comes across to them as unacceptably offensive.

Agree. The expectation that aspies should learn to "pass" as neurotypical illustrates the extent to which manipulation is seen as "normal" in typical society. Saying greetings and smiling at people to smoothen interactions are some of the small manipulations that people use all the time. People expect you to use these small manipulations. This is what behavioural modification is all about. I don't endorse it. It is depressing. Most false smiles are fairly harmless, but some represent manipulation on a huge scale, just think of all the smiling politicians.
olympiadis wrote:
They had rather you be a slime ball and lie to them.

Correct.



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17 Oct 2014, 6:02 pm

The dehumanizing factor is disturbing.

And there is always a reaction if you escalate the rhetoric. You call them 'pets', they might respond and call you 'vermin'.



jbw
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17 Oct 2014, 6:35 pm

Toy_Soldier wrote:
The dehumanizing factor is disturbing.

And there is always a reaction if you escalate the rhetoric. You call them 'pets', they might respond and call you 'vermin'.

Thinking through the dangers and cruelty inherent in any form of social hierarchy leads to the realisation that any real step forward towards human civilisation must involve the phasing out of all forms of hierarchical organisation. Calling the current state of human organisation civilised is a misnomer.

Typical society has an unspoken rule about never mentioning or fully acknowledging the role of social hierarchies in the formation of typical identities, yet people happily invent and apply labels that signal a social gradient on a regular basis. If you break the unspoken rule, and if you point out that you reject all forms of social hierarchy, you are perceived as being potentially dangerous. Typical society does not view manipulation as dangerous, and instead views it as dangerous if someone refuses to submit to manipulation and groupthink.



olympiadis
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17 Oct 2014, 6:54 pm

jbw wrote:
Toy_Soldier wrote:
The dehumanizing factor is disturbing.

And there is always a reaction if you escalate the rhetoric. You call them 'pets', they might respond and call you 'vermin'.

Thinking through the dangers and cruelty inherent in any form of social hierarchy leads to the realisation that any real step forward towards human civilisation must involve the phasing out of all forms of hierarchical organisation. Calling the current state of human organisation civilised is a misnomer.

Typical society has an unspoken rule about never mentioning or fully acknowledging the role of social hierarchies in the formation of typical identities, yet people happily invent and apply labels that signal a social gradient on a regular basis. If you break the unspoken rule, and if you point out that you reject all forms of social hierarchy, you are perceived as being potentially dangerous. Typical society does not view manipulation as dangerous, and instead views it as dangerous if someone refuses to submit to manipulation and groupthink.


Yep, society has already dehumanized itself. However, acknowledging that fact is a no no.



corvuscorax
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17 Oct 2014, 8:04 pm

Toy_Soldier wrote:
The dehumanizing factor is disturbing.

And there is always a reaction if you escalate the rhetoric. You call them 'pets', they might respond and call you 'vermin'.

It's not just me then...

It's really not a good idea to toy around with the idea of superiority, especially in general groups like non-autistics. You're not sure who you'll meet, and frankly that's just asking for trouble.


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17 Oct 2014, 8:27 pm

Well I don't see humans as pets. I have pets and I take care of them and they provide me the sense that another being actually cares about me. As far as seeing humans as just another animal I can relate to. Much of the human race see themselves as more highly evolved then animals. This is not true. We are animals and the majority of what we do is instinctual. Most people look at there crap in the toilet before they flush.


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18 Oct 2014, 2:33 am

I'm not nuts about the idea of calling people pets. You are supposed to love your pets, care about them, not look down on them (although sadly some do). My pets were the best parts of my life when I had them. They were so much more and better than people could ever be! For that reason I don't like the comparison made in this thread.

olympiadis wrote:
I think it is wrong in principle to use those psychological manipulations. The alternative is to be extremely honest with people, and that comes across to them as unacceptably offensive.

I don't think anyone appreciates extreme honesty.


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Pets are almost always dependent on humans for survival.

That's just because they are out of their natural habitat. Animals manage just fine when they're in their natural biotope. If we were put in a cage or an aquarium, we couldn't find food either.


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androbot01
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18 Oct 2014, 2:40 am

Image

I have to agree that pets is not the best label. Maybe partners in crime?



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18 Oct 2014, 3:47 am

VioletYoshi wrote:
Even though Elliot wasn't diagnosed with Autism, we as a community should be concerned that it was likely he had it, and not dismiss behavior from others on the spectrum as a way of fighting bigotry.

I am not responsible for the behavior of anyone else, no matter what type of group we both belong to. As an aspie I'm not responsible for what Rodgers did, just like as a Norwegian I am not responsible for the actions of Anders Behring Breivik.
Of course aspies come in all shades of grey, from naive to murderer. It'd be weird if we didn't. Suffering from a disorder or a disease doesn't mean anything more than the fact you have that diagnosis. No one with any kind of diagnosis is responsible for the actions of anyone else, no matter how much they have in common.

VioletYoshi wrote:
I think most of the discrimination we face is from the stance that those on the Autism spectrum should only be understood and never criticized. If we want acceptance it starts with respecting that other people have a right to tell us no.

I sort of agree here. Sort of...

I agree that aspies are generally more interested in being understood and not criticized. But there is a reason for that. And that is that we experience that NTs think we should be criticized rather than understood. That's something we see a lot, to say nothing of a lot of double standards we endure from the general public and the experts alike. Ideally we should be criticized when necessary and understood when needed. But that's not the treatment we get, so it comes as no surprise that aspies as a group will rather demand than compromise.

Instead of being equals we're on the outside looking in, and NTs reject and avoid us, and we resent them, and we are blunt and direct, which is misunderstood so then they resent us, and we equally look down on each other. They don't understand us and we don't understand them (although NTs can fail to understand NTs too, and aspies don't magically understand all aspies, so it seems no one understands anyone). NTs are like the national majority that thinks every minority should adapt but fails to understand that some at least will need help and that not everyone can adapt as much as they both would wish, while aspies are a minority that demands society at large change for their benefit. Both camps fail to see beyond themselves and fail to find a middle ground.

Sigh... People are taxing.


I am talking in broad strokes here, so no one needs feel offended or tell me "I don't do this or that".

And yeah, of course people have the right to tell someone else no.


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ImAnAspie
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19 Oct 2014, 1:34 am

I vary between thinking of humans as being humans, mindless automatons and God's little naive children.

If I happen to be out in public and the 'automaton' thing happens, I feel even more dissociated from the human race than usual. It's almost scary. Walking amongst a bunch of mindless, dead robots. If the 'God's little naive children' feeling comes over me, I can feel very sorry and concerned for them.

Oh, and sometimes I think of them as little naive creatures, like rodents.


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