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OJani
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22 Oct 2014, 2:17 pm

I have the capacity to be cruel, I know how 'schadenfreude' feels. This is a way of dissolving uncertainty and insecure feelings, even children are capable of feeling it. At the same time I truly despise cruelty and feel bad about people who are often cruel to others, use their weaknesses, or judge others by being simply ignorant, deliberately at times. I feel sympathy for those who face difficulties in their lives similar to mine, even if in different areas. Egoistic people seem to hurt others more as a general rule, I really can't identify with them, don't understand them. I put people afore of animals but hate when people don't care for animals. I don't see a connection between being on the spectrum and being generally less cruel, they seem to be independent personality traits. It may be so though that those who are on the spectrum and are mild and kindhearted people give off vibes that we kind of like to resonate with. This may show that our ideals are great in a special and unique way, differing significantly from the ideals of the world of NTs. I believe there's a huge overlap, though.


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olympiadis
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24 Oct 2014, 7:19 pm

This is from another thread, but I thought it even more relevant here:

That is shadenfreude.
I think that it is an illusions caused by memes working in the subconscious to hijack chemical reward pathways in the brain.

The proof?
If you did not believe that a certain premise (meme) was logically correct, then it loses its ability to trigger pleasure producing chemicals.
In fact a specific meme can trigger pleasure in one individual, but repulsion in another individual.
To me this is proof that it is an illusion produced by the imagined pressures produced by memes.

This is a tool that memes use to self-reinforce and to self-reference.



olympiadis
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02 Nov 2014, 3:13 pm

Buttercup wrote:
I have not been cruel on purpose, but I was capable of it through thoughtless actions, like eating commercial meats. It's a good thing I tend to be a vegan because cruelty-deficient meats & products are hard to get. It's a good thing I learned to sew because sweatshop free clothes are not cheap. It is possible to be cruel indirectly, because capitalistic consumer-driven NT society is made that way. The curse of shopping and buying a bunch of stuff not actually needed is preceeded by a lot of greenhouse gases. These are the same folks who thoughtlessly laugh at "America's Funniest Home Videos" without concern for people or animals obviously hurt. They tease, and if you don't respond as they see fit they might lay a guilt trip. If you tell the truth and it embarrasses them (publicly?!) you might become a target for repeated cruelties or abuse.
As a child (dx HFA at ten) I hardly played games by choice because they are too socially complex for me. Singling out another player to be a manipulated target or to exclude didn't occur to me. Complex Lying, guilt trips, heated arguments were too difficult, & not due to a lack of IQ points but due to the sheer speed at which they juggle it all! How to cope with abuses was also too complex. Apparently it still is.
However, I am good at seeing complex patterns NT's miss. :-)

The longer I remain at the mercy of society the more I see society is very fickle about defining mercy. NT's want me to be more like them. Definitely! Do they want me to lie, cheat, manipulate, argue, tease like them? No. Gosh, do therapists teach those very normal skills? No! Lol
Are they ashamed to teach them?

How can it be called "winning" when it includes alienating good people or creating a carbon footprint so large it warms the world & melts glaciers?
Do I want to be like them? Nope! But more importantly, can I manage the speed at which NT's execute these functions? No, not even on espresso.


I think you are correct. I have observed the same things so I can identify with what you are saying.



Sweetleaf
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02 Nov 2014, 3:21 pm

Well I could not initiate creulty but I think I'd be capable of it in some situations, like if someone was beating up a dog I'd probably have a hard time not attacking them and beating them with a stick if I could manage it. However I do not think all autistic people are incapable of being cruel....having autism does not make one immune to being a jerk. Also plenty of neurotypical people are not cruel and are compassionate beings so kind of unfair and a little pretentious to generalize them all as inherently cruel people who can only strive to be compassionate but never achieve it and then say autistic people are incapable of cruelty.

Not criticizing your lack of cruel behavior that is a good thing, but its not an autism specific thing.


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02 Nov 2014, 3:23 pm

larteaga wrote:
8O Do I have everyone's permission to say this? I believe that we are unable to be cruel. We may be interpreted as cruel, maybe? However, never can we abuse an animal or child or anyone weak! If this is so, then we are compassionate beings. Something that neurotypicals strive to achieve. After unable to watch the news because of a dog being abuse, feeling violently ill, I had this epiphany: I am sooo lucky to be in the spectrum! I am glad I can feel this pain about something or someone other than me. I dont want to be neuro-typical. I hope parents of children with aspergers are reading this. Stop trying to force your child to be like you if they are not! I have finally accepted Aspergers as a gift. What about you? Do you feel the same about cruelty? Do you feel this sadness with intense pain when someone, something or you are being abuse?


You don't need our permission, although I'm certain you're wrong. Perhaps some ASD sufferers are incapable of cruelty but it certainly doesn't define the condition. Both NTs and ASDSs are capable of empathy and cruelty.

Ignoring 'unintentional suffering' we may cause, I don't doubt that ASDSs are capable of acting to intentionally inflict cruelty.

All of the arguments regarding 'we're less likely to engage in cruelty' are ignoring cause and effect. Since we standout we're more likely to be subjected to cruelty and therefore are more likely to think of how the victim may feel due to the cruelty. This doesn't make us more empathetic or less capable of cruelty, only that we're likely to weigh both sides of the interaction.


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r2d2
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02 Nov 2014, 3:24 pm

. I'm afraid that people on the Spectrum are capable of most or all the flaws of neurotypical society. I don't think anyone is completely incapable of cruelty


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02 Nov 2014, 8:46 pm

Most people I know are not inherently cruel, but I would guess that NTs are more likely to make a 'mistake' and perform a cruel act (due to social pressure) than an Aspie is, in general. Typically outcasts, autistic individuals are a perfect target for bullies, and so you would expect a level of empathy would develop for those in a similar position.

I have read that children with AS do things such as pushing their siblings or pets down stairs and do not care for what they have done, or feel happy about it. This is something that seems to be restricted to the younger age group though, and is not uncommon in NTs either.


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olympiadis
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03 Nov 2014, 12:34 am

Buttercup wrote:
As a child (dx HFA at ten) I hardly played games by choice because they are too socially complex for me. Singling out another player to be a manipulated target or to exclude didn't occur to me. Complex Lying, guilt trips, heated arguments were too difficult, & not due to a lack of IQ points but due to the sheer speed at which they juggle it all! How to cope with abuses was also too complex. Apparently it still is.


Here is a socially accepted game played by adult men in Afghanistan.
Instead of a ball, It involves the use of a goat or a headless calf. The crowd of adult spectators cheers them on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzkashi

"Buzkashi or kokpar (literally "goat bashing" in Turkic, buz is Turkic for "goat" and kashi "means bashing")[1] is the Central Asian sport in which horse-mounted players attempt to drag a goat carcass toward a goal. Traditionally, games could last for several days, but in its more regulated tournament version also has a limited match time."


Most games operate by a similar principle and often inject varying levels of psychopathy, expected and implicit.

It takes an example like this to make it more clear to some people.

Many games are social tools that teach us cruelty, aggression, deception, manipulation, and hierarchies. They prepare us for social interaction as adults.



VioletYoshi
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03 Nov 2014, 2:30 am

I wonder if someone modded Goat Simulator they could have online tournaments, at least actual animals wouldn't be harmed then. I think this may have been the inspiration for the ending to Hostel 2.



FautheralLoather
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03 Nov 2014, 7:02 am

I would disagree, I had been abused by many and Aspies were a large portion, simply because I wanted to make friends. Infact I am generally by them now and a lot of other people. Most of them want me to clean and use me for cheap labor and threaten to beat me if I get out of it.

I am also seeing that they even want to bash me away form my skills, that I was born with.