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khaoz
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27 Oct 2014, 2:16 pm

I am trying to ask this question in a way that doesn't not seem contentious, even though some may feel the title of the post to be contentious.

If we are teaching young children to believe in an "all mighty God" at the same age children are being taught not to stick their fingers in a light socket or run out into oncoming traffic, that is, a child's most impressionable and formative years, how do you discern later in life if that grown child believes in this almighty God because they were taught to believe such or whether they believe because they have actually experienced God? And if they say it is because of personal experience, who is to say that what they have "experienced" is not what they have been taught to expect? Can you trust that persons own judgement to make that discernment when all that they are experiencing is what they have been told to experience? Can you trust the judgment of someone who as a child, has had these seeds "planted" in their young minds at the age at which their minds are most vulnerable? I think the bible even mentions these seeds.

Regardless the excess verbosity I use to ask this question, why does it upset believers so for people to raise the issue of indoctrination? I am just as concerned as any parent or grandparent regarding the ethical and moral development of society, I just feel it is legitimate to ask the question above without being browbeat over my word choices.

I don't care what a grown adult believes, but a 4-5 year old child running around praying and talking about Jesus this and God that is simply parroting someone elses words and has no idea the meaning of what they say.



nyxjord
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29 Oct 2014, 11:43 am

Spot on observations. +1


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LoveNotHate
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29 Oct 2014, 2:06 pm

The existence of a super-being seems self-evident to me. I find it strange that atheists think the universe came from nothing.

With regards to kids, "GOD" may make explaining why loved one, or pet died a lot easier. Do you object to 'Santa', 'Easter Bunny', 'Tooth Fairy' and 'Boogie Man'?



drh1138
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29 Oct 2014, 9:33 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Do you object to 'Santa', 'Easter Bunny', 'Tooth Fairy' and 'Boogie Man'?


As a matter of fact, yes; and those cultural myths and any associated holiays are Anglo-centric to begin with.



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29 Oct 2014, 9:37 pm

drh1138 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Do you object to 'Santa', 'Easter Bunny', 'Tooth Fairy' and 'Boogie Man'?


As a matter of fact, yes; and those cultural myths and any associated holiays are Anglo-centric to begin with.


So?


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Dox47
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29 Oct 2014, 9:43 pm

Eh, there are a lot of people who I suspect only cling to the beliefs they have, political, religious, or other, because that's what they were taught when they were young and uncritical, but I try not to voice that assumption because I consider it to be a form of bad faith.


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ajpd1989
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29 Oct 2014, 10:31 pm

If for no other reason, I believe in God because I survived something that I really believe I shouldn't have and there isn't any apparent logical explanation why.

It does not upset me to raise the issue of indoctrination.
I don't necessarily think it's a good idea, because many people grow up to be resentful of the fact that they were raised that way.
I went through a phase of that myself, because I did not fully understand the implications of becoming a Christian when I was younger.



trollcatman
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29 Oct 2014, 11:34 pm

drh1138 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Do you object to 'Santa', 'Easter Bunny', 'Tooth Fairy' and 'Boogie Man'?


As a matter of fact, yes; and those cultural myths and any associated holiays are Anglo-centric to begin with.


I think those are pretty generic-European. All of them are known in the Netherlands too. I looked on wikipedia and I saw that something similar to the tooth fairy was even mentioned in the Eddas, so the Old Norse knew of them as well. The easter bunny was apparantly invented by Germans, and Santa is just a different version of Saint Nicholas.



zer0netgain
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30 Oct 2014, 4:50 am

Every person reaches a point where they question what they were taught as a child. It begins once they discover the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus are not real.

Nothing short of total dominance over a child will prevent this.

What a person carries forward depends on what values they ascribe to what they were taught.

Lots of kids grow up and leave the "faith" they were raised in.

I was born and raised in a strong Democrat/liberal family. I became a conservative because I discovered the values my parents buy into are a load of garbage. We can't even talk about politics because the minute I put them in a corner where they have to realize their position is flawed, it gets ugly.



khaoz
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30 Oct 2014, 6:05 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
The existence of a super-being seems self-evident to me. I find it strange that atheists think the universe came from nothing.

With regards to kids, "GOD" may make explaining why loved one, or pet died a lot easier. Do you object to 'Santa', 'Easter Bunny', 'Tooth Fairy' and 'Boogie Man'?


You are comparing onions to lug nuts. If you think Atheists think the universe came from nothing (what about scientists?) maybe you don't understand the Big Bang, if that is the term that must be used. Human beings are "nothing." There is nothing "fixed" or permanent about the components of the human body. When you say "self evident" I hear, "I have always been told, from first memories.."



khaoz
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30 Oct 2014, 6:10 am

ajpd1989 wrote:
If for no other reason, I believe in God because I survived something that I really believe I shouldn't have and there isn't any apparent logical explanation why.

It does not upset me to raise the issue of indoctrination.
I don't necessarily think it's a good idea, because many people grow up to be resentful of the fact that they were raised that way.
I went through a phase of that myself, because I did not fully understand the implications of becoming a Christian when I was younger.



Not everything needs an explanation. Maybe the best explanation for anything exists in that particle of a moment before one becomes aware that a thought is forming in the mind.



khaoz
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30 Oct 2014, 6:17 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Every person reaches a point where they question what they were taught as a child. It begins once they discover the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus are not real.

Nothing short of total dominance over a child will prevent this.

What a person carries forward depends on what values they ascribe to what they were taught.

Lots of kids grow up and leave the "faith" they were raised in.

I was born and raised in a strong Democrat/liberal family. I became a conservative because I discovered the values my parents buy into are a load of garbage. We can't even talk about politics because the minute I put them in a corner where they have to realize their position is flawed, it gets ugly.


My politics/religion/ideology are not related to anything in childhood. My family was dysfunctional. Divorced parents of 6 kid all scattered in the wind by age 10. I spent a lot of those years sleeping in abandoned cars, sometimes not eating for days on end. My life ideology was developed through observation and experience.



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30 Oct 2014, 10:02 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Every person reaches a point where they question what they were taught as a child. It begins once they discover the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus are not real.

Nothing short of total dominance over a child will prevent this.

What a person carries forward depends on what values they ascribe to what they were taught.

Lots of kids grow up and leave the "faith" they were raised in.

I was born and raised in a strong Democrat/liberal family. I became a conservative because I discovered the values my parents buy into are a load of garbage. We can't even talk about politics because the minute I put them in a corner where they have to realize their position is flawed, it gets ugly.


Pretty much the same here. I started waking up and seeing the error of my parent's ways when I was 14.


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31 Oct 2014, 12:50 am

Raptor wrote:
[Pretty much the same here. I started waking up and seeing the error of my parent's ways when I was 14.


I'm also a convert, having been raised with different values than I currently hold, and I'm really coming to believe that makes a big difference, as the people I have the most trouble arguing with are those who never questioned what they were raised with, to the point where they'll perform astonishing mental contortions to avoid acknowledging things that contradict those beliefs. In my case, my values are based on my own uncertainties, that I don't know if my path is the best one or what is right for other people, so I choose to give others as much choice and control over their own lives as possible, and expect reciprocation.


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01 Nov 2014, 9:30 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
[Pretty much the same here. I started waking up and seeing the error of my parent's ways when I was 14.


I'm also a convert, having been raised with different values than I currently hold, and I'm really coming to believe that makes a big difference, as the people I have the most trouble arguing with are those who never questioned what they were raised with, to the point where they'll perform astonishing mental contortions to avoid acknowledging things that contradict those beliefs. In my case, my values are based on my own uncertainties, that I don't know if my path is the best one or what is right for other people, so I choose to give others as much choice and control over their own lives as possible, and expect reciprocation.

If I had a dime for every time my old man got up on a soap box and ranted ad nauseam about how the country needs redistribution of wealth and how everything needs to be regulated I would have been a multi millionaire before I started high school.

I would not indoctrinate kids to be conservative. I'd let them arrive at their own conclusions about their politics.


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LoveNotHate
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01 Nov 2014, 10:18 pm

khaoz wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
The existence of a super-being seems self-evident to me. I find it strange that atheists think the universe came from nothing.

With regards to kids, "GOD" may make explaining why loved one, or pet died a lot easier. Do you object to 'Santa', 'Easter Bunny', 'Tooth Fairy' and 'Boogie Man'?


You are comparing onions to lug nuts. If you think Atheists think the universe came from nothing (what about scientists?) maybe you don't understand the Big Bang, if that is the term that must be used. Human beings are "nothing." There is nothing "fixed" or permanent about the components of the human body. When you say "self evident" I hear, "I have always been told, from first memories.."


Noted atheist physicists do think the universe came from nothing ...(i.e. matter itself "popped" into existence from nothing) . When they talk about the theory of a 'Big Bang' they say that matter already existed for that event to happen (e..g, hydrogen was needed to fuel the event). So, atheists try to argue around the Cosmological argument by explaining that the pre-Big-Bang matter came from nothing.

I wont't post slightly off-topic youtube videos, however, just type in 'physicists universe from nothing' into youtube ...