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thomas81
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27 Oct 2014, 3:07 pm

Why the claim that anyone ever made it 'on their own' in America is a lie.

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-r ... us-fiction


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Raptor
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27 Oct 2014, 7:25 pm

Self made means they worked to earn what they got instead of having it given to them.
It's not rocket science.

I don't know whether you're trying to troll by starting threads like this or what but it's more amusing than anything.
Keep it up. :P


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27 Oct 2014, 8:22 pm

Believing you got what you have through hard work is one thing, but as the article demonstrates, the right attaches to this notion the lie that government and liberalism only exist to redistribute the wealth of the rich to the undeserving poor (regardless of circumstance or disability). The sense of responsibility we all owe to another in society (without which we'd all perish, rich or poor) is done away with because the rich are told they achieved what they have through their own efforts, and thus owing nothing to anyone else.


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luanqibazao
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27 Oct 2014, 9:38 pm

Either people have the right to peacefully and voluntarily trade with each other, for mutual benefit, so long as they initiate force against nobody ? or they have no rights and should be forcibly driven, like cattle.

All arguments in favor of the latter are specious and unworthy of close examination.



thomas81
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27 Oct 2014, 9:43 pm

Raptor wrote:
Self made means they worked to earn what they got instead of having it given to them.
It's not rocket science.

I don't know whether you're trying to troll by starting threads like this or what but it's more amusing than anything.
Keep it up. :P


How about next time you offer a reply of some substance and value then. The point of the article is that aside from the argument about hard work there is really nothing that special about these people who accumulate vast wealth. They work no harder than millions of other people.

Not that long ago the British writer and social commentator George Monbiot summed it up pretty well for me : "If wealth was the inevitable consequence of hard work, then by rights every working woman in Africa ought to be a millionaire".

The fact is, as stated by the article there is many factors OTHER than hard work that the western wealthy do not want us to pay attention to. Luck, connections, who their parents are and being in the right place at the right time. None of which should excuse the exhorbitant amount of taxes they dodge on the back of the false cannard 'We are the social titans who earned the right to dodge our fair share'.


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27 Oct 2014, 9:47 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Believing you got what you have through hard work is one thing, but as the article demonstrates, the right attaches to this notion the lie that government and liberalism only exist to redistribute the wealth of the rich to the undeserving poor (regardless of circumstance or disability). The sense of responsibility we all owe to another in society (without which we'd all perish, rich or poor) is done away with because the rich are told they achieved what they have through their own efforts, and thus owing nothing to anyone else.


I think you know what I meant.
And, no I didnt read the article. If I want to read liberal envy and bitterness I have only to come to this forum and read just abut any thread that certain people have participated in.


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thomas81
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27 Oct 2014, 9:50 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Believing you got what you have through hard work is one thing, but as the article demonstrates, the right attaches to this notion the lie that government and liberalism only exist to redistribute the wealth of the rich to the undeserving poor (regardless of circumstance or disability). The sense of responsibility we all owe to another in society (without which we'd all perish, rich or poor) is done away with because the rich are told they achieved what they have through their own efforts, and thus owing nothing to anyone else.


I think you know what I meant.
And, no I didnt read the article. If I want to read liberal envy and bitterness I have only to come to this forum and read just abut any thread that certain people have participated in.



If you haven't read the article then you're rather poorly placed to critique it.

Although I suppose this is the sort of arrogance we should come to expect from conservatives.


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thomas81
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27 Oct 2014, 9:54 pm

luanqibazao wrote:
Either people have the right to peacefully and voluntarily trade with each other, for mutual benefit, so long as they initiate force against nobody ? or they have no rights and should be forcibly driven, like cattle.



Textbook example of the false dichotomy.


Unrestricted free trade and dictatorships are just as bad as each other. When you have no regulations on trade, those with the most spending power trample roughshod over those without. The best solution is somewhere in between.


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luanqibazao
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27 Oct 2014, 10:09 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Unrestricted free trade and dictatorships are just as bad as each other. When you have no regulations on trade, those with the most spending power trample roughshod over those without. The best solution is somewhere in between.


No compromise is possible between opposite principles.

Suppose I have a dozen eggs (because I raise chickens) and you want them (because you're hungry). You can either offer some good or service which I want, and am willing to pay a dozen eggs for, or you can hold a gun to my head and take the eggs by force. There is no "in between". If you merely threaten to break my leg, and take only six eggs, you are still the initiator of force and I am still the victim.



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27 Oct 2014, 10:23 pm

luanqibazao wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Unrestricted free trade and dictatorships are just as bad as each other. When you have no regulations on trade, those with the most spending power trample roughshod over those without. The best solution is somewhere in between.


No compromise is possible between opposite principles.

Suppose I have a dozen eggs (because I raise chickens) and you want them (because you're hungry). You can either offer some good or service which I want, and am willing to pay a dozen eggs for, or you can hold a gun to my head and take the eggs by force. There is no "in between". If you merely threaten to break my leg, and take only six eggs, you are still the initiator of force and I am still the victim.


Or you can give the hungry person an egg out of human kindness.


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27 Oct 2014, 10:24 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Believing you got what you have through hard work is one thing, but as the article demonstrates, the right attaches to this notion the lie that government and liberalism only exist to redistribute the wealth of the rich to the undeserving poor (regardless of circumstance or disability). The sense of responsibility we all owe to another in society (without which we'd all perish, rich or poor) is done away with because the rich are told they achieved what they have through their own efforts, and thus owing nothing to anyone else.


I think you know what I meant.
And, no I didnt read the article. If I want to read liberal envy and bitterness I have only to come to this forum and read just abut any thread that certain people have participated in.


If you didn't read the article, why do you think you're qualified to comment on it?


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luanqibazao
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27 Oct 2014, 10:31 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Or you can give the hungry person an egg out of human kindness.


I can, and I might at that. But if I give all my eggs away, I won't be able to feed the chicken and pretty soon we all starve.



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27 Oct 2014, 10:56 pm

luanqibazao wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Or you can give the hungry person an egg out of human kindness.


I can, and I might at that. But if I give all my eggs away, I won't be able to feed the chicken and pretty soon we all starve.


No one says you have to give all your eggs away. And if you help the needy, you'll have a good rep with everyone, and you'll think well of yourself. Nothing wrong with any of that.


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27 Oct 2014, 11:45 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Believing you got what you have through hard work is one thing, but as the article demonstrates, the right attaches to this notion the lie that government and liberalism only exist to redistribute the wealth of the rich to the undeserving poor (regardless of circumstance or disability). The sense of responsibility we all owe to another in society (without which we'd all perish, rich or poor) is done away with because the rich are told they achieved what they have through their own efforts, and thus owing nothing to anyone else.


I think you know what I meant.
And, no I didnt read the article. If I want to read liberal envy and bitterness I have only to come to this forum and read just abut any thread that certain people have participated in.



This is how they try to shut you up if you do not think and speak in lock step with them and if you try to use the same type of words back to them WATCH OUT. It is best to talk in small words that can not be called mean.



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28 Oct 2014, 2:16 am

Seems to be plenty of conservative envy and bitterness...to go around as well.


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28 Oct 2014, 2:57 am

Am I going to have to explain why criticism is not censorship?


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