The Democrats used to be Conservative, right?

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rvacountrysinger
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03 Nov 2014, 9:39 pm

When I read history the Republican party- was the party of Lincoln. Lincoln was obviously a liberal. He was for Big Government, heavy taxes, and infringing on States Rights. The Democrats back then wanted less Government, and more Sovereignty of States. They wanted less taxes, supported free trade with Europe, and didn't like the idea of being told what to do.

So when you really look at it, how could the Democrats be considered liberal ? They were not liberal back then. The parties must have switched somewhere along the line.

What do Y'all think?

PS I am not a Democrat, I am a Tea Party supporter!



funeralxempire
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03 Nov 2014, 9:45 pm

It's difficult to project modern terms and their associated definitions over 100 years into the past but effectively you're right.

That said, both parties had 'liberal' and 'conservative' wings that overlapped far more heavily than they have in recent memory.

I assume you're discussing from the US Civil War until pre-FDR?


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LoveNotHate
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03 Nov 2014, 10:17 pm

Many democrats are conservative and many Republicans are liberal. In my state we elected a Republican governor who likes to raise taxes. He has raise many income taxes including the state tax, now he wants to raise the gas tax.

The "Blue Dog Democrats" are fiscally conservative.
http://bluedog.schrader.house.gov/about/

Many Democrats represent religious areas so they anti-abortion, or are pro-gun rights because they represent that area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Democrat



Last edited by LoveNotHate on 03 Nov 2014, 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jacoby
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03 Nov 2014, 10:18 pm

The political parties weren't really divided ideologically into conservative and liberal, it was more geographic. It wasn't that long ago when there were extremely conservative Democrats and very liberal Republicans, there was a lot of overlap. Larry McDonald was Democrat from Georgia and was the head of the John Birch Society, he was basically Ron Paul before there was Ron Paul.



Lukecash12
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03 Nov 2014, 10:31 pm

rvacountrysinger wrote:
When I read history the Republican party- was the party of Lincoln. Lincoln was obviously a liberal. He was for Big Government, heavy taxes, and infringing on States Rights. The Democrats back then wanted less Government, and more Sovereignty of States. They wanted less taxes, supported free trade with Europe, and didn't like the idea of being told what to do.

So when you really look at it, how could the Democrats be considered liberal ? They were not liberal back then. The parties must have switched somewhere along the line.

What do Y'all think?

PS I am not a Democrat, I am a Tea Party supporter!


Lincoln was not for heavy taxes and it's highly debatable that he was for big government, especially when you compare him to presidents like Theodore Roosevelt. I may be misinformed but I've never read of Lincoln being for controlling economic interests in government (he was definitely behind industry but I'm not sure if trusts had really developed yet), and Lincoln may have started the IRS but it was an emergency war time tax, it was voluntary if I remember correctly, and it only affected the highest percentiles of income.

As for states' sovereignty, yeah, I'm not totally sure there because it seems like both parties have trampled on that from time to time and now we just take it for granted that both parties could care less about the issue. Sure, Republicans give the issue some lip service but they've had the majority as well as the office of president a number of times in my life and the lip service didn't pan out. Plus they don't even emphasize the original thrust of the issue that was at the heart of the civil war: a states' economic sovereignty.


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luanqibazao
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03 Nov 2014, 10:53 pm

You have to remember that in the nineteenth century "liberal" still meant "pro-liberty." The Jeffersonians were liberals, the abolitionists were liberals, Grover Cleveland was a liberal. Today those people look like libertarians or conservatives depending on what else they stood for. Lincoln was a mixed case, he primarily stood for liberal principles but took some questionable actions during the war. Late in the century when some people began agitating for a much more intrusive federal government they were then understood to be the opposite of liberals. (They called themselves Progressives, rather humorously in my opinion.)

If you're curious how the party of maximum liberty morphed into the party of maximum State power, there's a fascinating scholarly book on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/159813027 ... SY200_QL40



naturalplastic
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04 Nov 2014, 4:16 am

The Republicans were founded as an anti slavery party- the ultimate left wing cause of the time. Once the civil war and slavery were done and finished the GOP became the party of the Northern industrialists.

Lincoln's GOP successors were more heavy handed than Lincoln himself about conducting the post war Reconstruction. So Southern Whites rallied to the Democratic party out of regional bitterness inspired by the GOP.

There were progressive and conservative wings of both parties.

As the labor movement gained strength in the North labor gravitated to the Democrats, management to the GOP.

After WWII the Black Civil Rights Movement emerged. Its chief enemy was the Democratic Party. Its chief ally against the Democratic Party was...the Democratic Party! The former being the Southern wing, the later being the northern labor/New Deal wing.

Strom Thurmond even formed a breakaway "Dixiecrat" party for southern Whites (too bad it died out -there need to be two seperate conservative parties).

The Dixiecrats got reabsorbed into the Democrats. By the Sixties the Dems were associated with liberalism, and the GOP with conservatism, though there were many liberal GOPers in Congress, and the Dixiecrat wing was still in the Democratic party (despite George Wallace trying to pry it away into his third party). So there was a lot of reaching across the aisles. A lot of cooperation.

Then in 1994 came the off year election known as the "Republican Revolution"- which should be called "The Dixiecrat Extinction Event" because that was when all of the Southern White voters (who had been voting Democrat out of regional spite for over a centurey) finnally all defected to the GOP. Both parties became more solidly pure in ideology. And the battle lines hardened. And the party that defeated the South in the Civil War, and freed the slaves became the main party of Southern White voters.

Long story short: the Democratic party of the 20th Century was really two political parties:one liberal, and one extremely conservative. The Republican was one conservative party centered in the Northeast- but a slightly different brand of conservatism than the southern wing of the Dems..

Now Democrats are one liberal party, and the GOP is a party of two feuding brands of conservatism (libertarian vs Bible Thumping).



rvacountrysinger
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04 Nov 2014, 7:30 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
The Republicans were founded as an anti slavery party- the ultimate left wing cause of the time. Once the civil war and slavery were done and finished the GOP became the party of the Northern industrialists.

Lincoln's GOP successors were more heavy handed than Lincoln himself about conducting the post war Reconstruction. So Southern Whites rallied to the Democratic party out of regional bitterness inspired by the GOP.

There were progressive and conservative wings of both parties.

As the labor movement gained strength in the North labor gravitated to the Democrats, management to the GOP.

After WWII the Black Civil Rights Movement emerged. Its chief enemy was the Democratic Party. Its chief ally against the Democratic Party was...the Democratic Party! The former being the Southern wing, the later being the northern labor/New Deal wing.

Strom Thurmond even formed a breakaway "Dixiecrat" party for southern Whites (too bad it died out -there need to be two seperate conservative parties).

The Dixiecrats got reabsorbed into the Democrats. By the Sixties the Dems were associated with liberalism, and the GOP with conservatism, though there were many liberal GOPers in Congress, and the Dixiecrat wing was still in the Democratic party (despite George Wallace trying to pry it away into his third party). So there was a lot of reaching across the aisles. A lot of cooperation.

Then in 1994 came the off year election known as the "Republican Revolution"- which should be called "The Dixiecrat Extinction Event" because that was when all of the Southern White voters (who had been voting Democrat out of regional spite for over a centurey) finnally all defected to the GOP. Both parties became more solidly pure in ideology. And the battle lines hardened. And the party that defeated the South in the Civil War, and freed the slaves became the main party of Southern White voters.

Long story short: the Democratic party of the 20th Century was really two political parties:one liberal, and one extremely conservative. The Republican was one conservative party centered in the Northeast- but a slightly different brand of conservatism than the southern wing of the Dems..

Now Democrats are one liberal party, and the GOP is a party of two feuding brands of conservatism (libertarian vs Bible Thumping).


That makes sense. I guess my main confusion is I always thought the South was the more conservative part of the country. Historically, though, most Southern states were heavy Democrat. But today, the South is very strong GOP, while the Northeast and Upper Midwest states are heavy Democrat. I guess there must be a distinction between Southern and Northern Democrats. The GOP was once considered the Northern party. But now its solid South.



funeralxempire
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04 Nov 2014, 7:45 pm

rvacountrysinger wrote:
I guess there must be a distinction between Southern and Northern Democrats. The GOP was once considered the Northern party. But now its solid South.


Definitely. While the Democrats were a 'populist' party, what 'populist' meant in different parts of the country lead to the party having two distinct wings that were often at odds with each other.

That quote about 'I didn't leave the Democratic party, the party left me' resonated so well for so many southerners who had previously been strong supporters of the Democratic party because there was some degree of truth to it. Dixiecrats influence over the party steadily waned until effectively the party had 'left them'.


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05 Nov 2014, 12:01 am

It should be recalled how Nixon was able to begin the process of attracting conservative white southern Democrats to the Republican party by playing to their resentment toward civil rights that had been championed by northern liberal Democrats, known as the Southern Strategy. Since then, the former southern Democrats set the tone for the Republican party, and was the beginning of the political divisiveness in American politics today.


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05 Nov 2014, 12:03 am

It should be recalled how Nixon was able to begin the process of attracting conservative white southern Democrats to the Republican party by playing to their resentment toward civil rights that had been championed by northern liberal Democrats, known as the Southern Strategy. Since then, the former southern Democrats set the tone for the Republican party, and was the beginning of the political divisiveness in American politics today.


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