Page 1 of 3 [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Shep
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 8 Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 219
Location: Akron, OH

08 Nov 2014, 6:39 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
You are assuming the existence of an afterlife. Ruveyn is Jewish, and many Jews reject the idea of Heaven.

I think it's also worth remembering that free will doesn't exist, so there's not much sense appealing to it.
I'll just say it: this whole post is flat-out wrong. "Existence of an afterlife" comes straight out of their own beliefs. See here for an example:
Quote:
Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence.
There's a whole page on proving that point wrong. And that's just the first one I Googled quite honestly.

And for the "free will doesn't exist" point, that's just downright silly :lol:



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 27
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,223
Location: Reading, England

08 Nov 2014, 6:46 pm

Shep wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
You are assuming the existence of an afterlife. Ruveyn is Jewish, and many Jews reject the idea of Heaven.

I think it's also worth remembering that free will doesn't exist, so there's not much sense appealing to it.
I'll just say it: this whole post is flat-out wrong. "Existence of an afterlife" comes straight out of their own beliefs. See here for an example:
Quote:
Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence.
There's a whole page on proving that point wrong. And that's just the first one I Googled quite honestly.

You either did not understand what I wrote or you did not read what you linked to.
Quote:
And for the "free will doesn't exist" point, that's just downright silly :lol:

Does a thrown ball have free will?



Shep
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 8 Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 219
Location: Akron, OH

08 Nov 2014, 6:53 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
You either did not understand what I wrote or you did not read what you linked to.
I did both. Doesn't change anything though. More quotes from that page:
Quote:
However, there is clear evidence in the Torah of belief in existence after death. The Torah indicates in several places that the righteous will be reunited with their loved ones after death, while the wicked will be excluded from this reunion.

Quote:
The spiritual afterlife is referred to in Hebrew as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come, although this term is also used to refer to the messianic age. The Olam Ha-Ba is another, higher state of being

Quote:
Nevertheless, we definitely believe that your place in the Olam Ha-Ba is determined by a merit system based on your actions, not by who you are or what religion you profess. In addition, we definitely believe that humanity is capable of being considered righteous in G-d's eyes, or at least good enough to merit paradise after a suitable period of purification

Jews believe in the afterlife too. They may call it something different, but they still believe in it.

The_Walrus wrote:
Does a thrown ball have free will?
Are you calling yourself a thrown ball? I don't know about you, but I consider myself a human, so...



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 27
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,223
Location: Reading, England

08 Nov 2014, 7:01 pm

Shep wrote:
I did both. Doesn't change anything though.

So you didn't read "It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected", which directly contradicts your assertion that it is flat out wrong that many Jews reject the idea of heaven?

Shep wrote:
]Are you calling yourself a thrown ball? I don't know about you, but I consider myself a human, so...

Like a thrown ball, human bodies behave according to the laws of physics. We are bound by cause and effect. We have no choice in what we will ultimately do because factors from before we were born mean we will inevitably act in a certain way, just like a thrown ball.

Furthermore, it seems you believe in a god. If an omniscient god exists, he already knows what we are going to do. Again, we have no choice, no freedom - we cannot behave differently to how this god knew we would at the creation of the universe.



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,924
Location: I'm right here

08 Nov 2014, 7:20 pm

Shep wrote:
To everyone who has responded on this thread thus far except auntblabby, this is not a "does God exist?" thread, it's a "Why does God..." thread. Keep the "nonexistent" arguments to threads on the subject. (And I'm excluding auntblabby because he's not debating that premise like the rest of you are.)


Thank you for your guidance oh glorious self-appointed thread moderator. :roll:

OP asked why 'god' behaves a certain way. Non-existence is a perfect explanation.


_________________
You can't buy happiness; steal it.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,818

08 Nov 2014, 8:47 pm

Well there most definitely IS Relative Free WILL.. Definitely a gift from GOD aka YES.. ALL THAT IS.. I have it NOW and at least for me.. IT aka God does Co-create amazing things in my life THAT I have irrefutable evidence for ..! Hope you attain IT one day soon! :) No membership in any religion required as God IS an EEO 'employer'...!


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 110,405
Location: the island of defective toy santas

08 Nov 2014, 9:21 pm

if there is free will, it has not touched me, except as a backhand.



aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,818

08 Nov 2014, 10:36 pm

auntblabby wrote:
if there is free will, it has not touched me, except as a backhand.


For a long time i FELT the same way..

But never the less i knew tHere IS

NO escaping the force of GOD

That part is grace.. i guess...

A gift for sure...:)

And what i find now IS..

Working with GOD.. AND understanding the gift that CAN be Human Nature..

IS Co-Creating WITH GOD.. BUT it requires looking within.. finding natural instinct and intuition.

And IT IS NO gift that culture and or religion alone can give one to find and BE with ALLONE aka GOD too...

IT IS ALL NATURAL BUT WITHIN OUR GRASP IF WE NEVER EVER GIVE UP SEEKING IT AND
YES WORKING WITH IT AKA GOD.. INSTEAD OF AGAINST GOD.. BUT THAT PART IS UP TO
EACH INDIVIDUAL IF AND WHEN THEY FIND THEIR OWN TRUE AKA RELATIVE FREE WILL....

This is not something easy to put into words.. as truly before i found IT aka GOD for ALL relative intents and purposes..

GOD did not exist....EVEN though I knew then.. logically GOD does exist....

GOD IS A GIFT TOO IN TRUE HUMAN EFFECT AND AFFECT WHEN EXPERIENCED.. FOR THOSE THAT FIND A
PATH THAT WORKS...
AND THE BEST ONE I KNOW NOW..

FOR SURE..:)

IS my personal path and journey to live and co-create with GOD in my life.. every now of every now..

It truly is why I'm fearless..now.. there is no need for fear of death or anything else other than innate natural fears..

when one truly FULLY walks with GOD....

I have zero doubt that GOD exists.. GOD evidences GOD's existence to me NOW 100%...

MY FAITH IS UNBREAKABLE.. even if i lOSE THE FEELING OF GOD IN MY LIFE AGAIN.. AS my faith was unbreakable even when I could not FEEL GOD and only recognized the logical sense of GOD's existence....


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


Booyakasha
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Oct 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,898

09 Nov 2014, 4:15 am

MBoura, your referral to a website has been removed since posting solely for promotion is against the rules, and likewise subsequent posts containing the same referral.



androbot01
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada

09 Nov 2014, 7:08 am

God allows pain and suffering, (evil] on Earth because that is the human condition. In this biological form, suffering is inescapable. To get rid of evil he would have to get rid of us. He's tried before, maybe he will again.



Shep
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 8 Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 219
Location: Akron, OH

09 Nov 2014, 8:52 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Shep wrote:
I did both. Doesn't change anything though.

So you didn't read "It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected", which directly contradicts your assertion that it is flat out wrong that many Jews reject the idea of heaven?
It is also possible for a Lutheran to believe the same thing. Doesn't mean it's in accordance with their religious doctrine though. :wink:

The_Walrus wrote:
Like a thrown ball, human bodies behave according to the laws of physics. We are bound by cause and effect. We have no choice in what we will ultimately do because factors from before we were born mean we will inevitably act in a certain way, just like a thrown ball.
Ah, I see what you're getting at now. Especially after reading this next bit:
The_Walrus wrote:
Furthermore, it seems you believe in a god. If an omniscient god exists, he already knows what we are going to do. Again, we have no choice, no freedom - we cannot behave differently to how this god knew we would at the creation of the universe.
I'll be honest here: I cannot refute this point, and actually have to partially agree with it! It is in fact written that God knows everything we are going to do before we do it. I can't explain how this is possible without your "cause and effect" coming into play, particularly if you want to get into Chaos Theory etc. etc., but anyways, I will say this: just because God knows what the result of every single one of your actions will be doesn't mean that you should live like it's all been determined for you.

funeralxempire wrote:
OP asked why 'god' behaves a certain way. Non-existence is a perfect explanation.
Not really. OP also stated this:
Quote:
I have faith and I do believe in God and a higher power, but I don't understand the way things work at times.
He was asking for clarification, not for someone to tell him his beliefs are invalid.

(As for the moderator comment, care to speak to this next guy?)
Booyakasha wrote:
MBoura, your referral to a website has been removed since posting solely for promotion is against the rules, and likewise subsequent posts containing the same referral.
Duly noted. Seemed like a gray area since it was technically on-topic, but good to know how to handle it in the future :wink:



Security_Code
Raven
Raven

User avatar

Joined: 7 Oct 2014
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 106

09 Nov 2014, 10:47 am

Because there is no one in control, and raw energy, and crude forces of nature are in control of our lives. not a sentient creature. since that's a harsh idea to take, most people prefer a comfortable notion that everything is bubble wrapped and safe, and organized. the idea that there is no point to our lives, that the entire billions of years of animal evolution has been suffering for nothing is an extremely disappointing and depressing truth. the idea that one wrong gene in evolutions sphere and it could host an entire race of sentience that experiences and has experienced nothing but suffering is intensely disturbing and nature wouldn't care as long as it reproduces effectively and the genes spread.. I think once you reach this level of intelligence of life in the way it is now you understand inherently what's going on around you its like a child who's outgrown tick tak to. I don't think sentience is acceptable anyone who would invent it like say a god is a sadist.



izzeme
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Apr 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,665

10 Nov 2014, 4:29 am

as far as i can see, there are 3 options for wars/suffering to exist:

1) god doesn't exist
quite obvious really, if he isn't real, he is in no position to allow/disallow anything really

2) god isn't omnipotent
if a god of some denomination exists, he might not be able to fix wars, perhaps our free will is too strong for him to overrule, being able to only give hints that he is pissed, but unable to take any active measures.

3) god is a d*ck
final option, assuming i'm wrong on both #1 and #2, that is, there is a god, and he is able to fix suffering, there is only one option left: he doesn't care and/or likes to see us suffer, much like a 10-year old playing "the sims"


in either case, i see no reason to follow him, let alone worship, assuming i even believe in him, becouse in the best case scenario (from the church' PoV), he is a jerk that doesn't deserve worship



AspieOtaku
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,051
Location: San Jose

10 Nov 2014, 5:22 am

izzeme wrote:
as far as i can see, there are 3 options for wars/suffering to exist:

1) god doesn't exist
quite obvious really, if he isn't real, he is in no position to allow/disallow anything really

2) god isn't omnipotent
if a god of some denomination exists, he might not be able to fix wars, perhaps our free will is too strong for him to overrule, being able to only give hints that he is pissed, but unable to take any active measures.

3) god is a d*ck
final option, assuming i'm wrong on both #1 and #2, that is, there is a god, and he is able to fix suffering, there is only one option left: he doesn't care and/or likes to see us suffer, much like a 10-year old playing "the sims"


in either case, i see no reason to follow him, let alone worship, assuming i even believe in him, becouse in the best case scenario (from the church' PoV), he is a jerk that doesn't deserve worship
Thank you someone who understands of course an easier scenario is number 1 i go for although people get mad at me when I mention 2 and esspecially number 3 its kind of similar to when you have to tell the children that there is no easter bunny santa clause or tooth fairy and that they are all made up.


_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList


ScrewyWabbit
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Oct 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,151

10 Nov 2014, 1:58 pm

MSBKyle wrote:
Why does God make us come to a world full of diseases, war, bad people, and evil? Why do some people seem to have everything and others seem to have very little? Why does he take some people young and lets others live to 100 and older? I have faith and I do believe in God and a higher power, but I don't understand the way things work at times. God is suppose to be perfect and all powerful. If he is perfect, then why is there chaos and suffering in this world? Where is God when bad things are happening? Why do people work hard and get very little or nothing and others prosper? I have so many questions about these things and I would really love to know the answers. I know that no one can simply answer these questions except God, but does anyone else feel this way or have these questions?


Those who believe in a god will tell you he is good, pure, etc. and then 'explain' bad things that happen by telling us that god has some sort of higher purpose for the greater good that we are not privy to or could not understand, or will blame our own shortcomings - i.e. we failed to pray enough, we didn't behave with enough morality, we angered him etc. And then of course there is the other issue of what happens when people's prayers are at odds with one another - take this quote from Abraham Lincoln's 2nd Innaugural Address, speaking of the American Civil War: "Both [sides] read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. {...} The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him?"



slave
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Feb 2012
Age: 109
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,419
Location: Dystopia Planetia

10 Nov 2014, 10:38 pm

MSBKyle wrote:
Why does God make us come to a world full of diseases, war, bad people, and evil? Why do some people seem to have everything and others seem to have very little? Why does he take some people young and lets others live to 100 and older? I have faith and I do believe in God and a higher power, but I don't understand the way things work at times. God is suppose to be perfect and all powerful. If he is perfect, then why is there chaos and suffering in this world? Where is God when bad things are happening? Why do people work hard and get very little or nothing and others prosper? I have so many questions about these things and I would really love to know the answers. I know that no one can simply answer these questions except God, but does anyone else feel this way or have these questions?


Because she is weak or she is a sadist....I'm not really sure. I can relate to your desire to understand the world and suffering.

Perhaps if you ask her really nicely, she will talk inside your head and justify her apparent negligence.
If she does explain, please let me know.
Thanks. :)