The engineering of the NeuroTypical brain, Autistic brain.

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Do you understand the differences between the "autistic brain" and the "neurotypical brain"?
Yes, after I read this thread. 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
No, this thread is full of stupid and incorrect information, it doesn't fit reality. 39%  39%  [ 7 ]
It's to complicated to understand the differences by reading and researching the scientific data about MRI studies. 22%  22%  [ 4 ]
I've no idea. 17%  17%  [ 3 ]
Yes, but this thread is false. I've a different view (please post your view!) :) 11%  11%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 18

kraftiekortie
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12 Nov 2014, 10:13 am

This reeks of Eugenics, frankly.

And it's not pleasant.



engineerbiology
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12 Nov 2014, 10:17 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
This reeks of Eugenics, frankly.

And it's not pleasant.


No, I'm just stating that their is a wide variety of eye-opening between individuals, and it's even visible at the skulls of homo sapiens...

https://www.google.be/search?q=opening+ ... s&tbm=isch
&sa=X&ei=2XljVIa3LojCsAS1xoLYDQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=faces&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=JpvvxxJK2
eUD8M%253A%3BV1Bv_WGvwgqaCM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fshechive.files.wordpress.com%252F2013%252F03%
252Fshopped-faces2.jpg%253Fw%253D500%2526h%253D500%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ftheberry.com%252F2013%2
52F03%252F06%252Fcelebs-faces-shopped-to-be-completely-symmetrical-16-photos%252F%3B500%3B500



engineerbiology
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12 Nov 2014, 10:22 am

Adamantium wrote:
http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2014/studies-question-link-between-head-circumference-autism
Quote:
Overall, the studies underscore the difficulty of identifying reliable risk markers for autism, as the molecular underpinnings of the disorder can vary widely from person to person.

?Lately there?s been this backlash against the notion that there?s abnormal brain enlargement in autism at all,? says Christine Nordahl, assistant professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the University of California, Davis. Nordahl led the 2011 study but was not involved in the new work. ?I think that one thing that people are missing is the heterogeneity of the disorder.?


Your own link offered in support of the slitty eyed NT theory shows nothing of the kind but does make a very different point http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/is-it-a ... sorder/10/
Quote:
Dr. Aldridge says that with the funny facial expression and angle at which this photo was taken, it's hard to tell that he has the distinguishing facial characteristics. This is evidence that while children with autism share similar facial features, they don't look drastically different from those without the disorder.


There is solid evidence for physical markers that may be related to autism in a tiny minority of cases, such as individuals with CHD8 variations, but the data is too thin to draw meaningful conclusions. When a broader sample has been studied for this mutation, then some useful conclusions may be drawn, maybe.
http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/ ... sm-subtype

Since you found my brief description of your characterization of NT and ASD traits confusing, let me restate it in different terms: your descriptions of NTs are false in many details and this is obvious even on a very quick read through. Your statements about ASD are also mostly false. Given this, I won't be looking too deeply into the rest of your model. It can't be valid, because it rests on terrible premises.


btw, not everyone has all autism genes. Autism genes are spread in the population, some people have open-wide eyes, other doesn't have this traits. Genetics is important.



engineerbiology
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12 Nov 2014, 10:51 am

Adamantium wrote:
http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/2014/studies-question-link-between-head-circumference-autism
Quote:
Overall, the studies underscore the difficulty of identifying reliable risk markers for autism, as the molecular underpinnings of the disorder can vary widely from person to person.

?Lately there?s been this backlash against the notion that there?s abnormal brain enlargement in autism at all,? says Christine Nordahl, assistant professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at the University of California, Davis. Nordahl led the 2011 study but was not involved in the new work. ?I think that one thing that people are missing is the heterogeneity of the disorder.?


Your own link offered in support of the slitty eyed NT theory shows nothing of the kind but does make a very different point http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/is-it-a ... sorder/10/
Quote:
Dr. Aldridge says that with the funny facial expression and angle at which this photo was taken, it's hard to tell that he has the distinguishing facial characteristics. This is evidence that while children with autism share similar facial features, they don't look drastically different from those without the disorder.


There is solid evidence for physical markers that may be related to autism in a tiny minority of cases, such as individuals with CHD8 variations, but the data is too thin to draw meaningful conclusions. When a broader sample has been studied for this mutation, then some useful conclusions may be drawn, maybe.
http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/ ... sm-subtype

Since you found my brief description of your characterization of NT and ASD traits confusing, let me restate it in different terms: your descriptions of NTs are false in many details and this is obvious even on a very quick read through. Your statements about ASD are also mostly false. Given this, I won't be looking too deeply into the rest of your model. It can't be valid, because it rests on terrible premises.


Which statements about ASD are false? Which description(s) of NTs are false?

If there is a genetic link between autism and open-wide eyes, there is also a link between neurotypical and the opposite of open wide eyes, = slitty closed eyes.



Janissy
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12 Nov 2014, 11:17 am

engineerbiology wrote:
If there is a genetic link between autism and open-wide eyes,

There isn't. You have confused "open wide" with "wide set"- and even that link is pretty tenuous and in dispute.

Quote:
there is also a link between neurotypical and the opposite of open wide eyes, = slitty closed eyes.


This is the problem with characterizing things in polar opposites. Even if there was a link between autism and wide open eyes (which there is not, the tenuous link is wide set), this does not mean that everybody without autism therefore has eyes which are slitty and closed. If X is always open, that does not mean that not-X is always closed.

Your photos of homo sapien and neanderthal skulls don't demonstrate anything about AS or NT people.



Janissy
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12 Nov 2014, 11:21 am

engineerbiology wrote:
Which statements about ASD are false? Which description(s) of NTs are false?
.


The falseness is not in the statements as such but rather in attempting to use them to divide up AS/NT people. It's easy enough to find many AS people who fit the AS statements and NT people who fit the NT statements. There are 7 billion people after all. The falseness is in thinking that this makes those AS traits or NT traits.



Tollorin
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12 Nov 2014, 11:22 am

engineerbiology wrote:
Gluten / Casein sensitivity
NT: None
ASD: Sensitive; Opioid-like effects

There is no proof of that, and gluten sensivity may exist, (Considering it separate from the much more serious celiac allergy.) it's very overhyped and many peoples saying themself gluten intolerant are not.

Quote:
Social prowess in typical settings
NT:Excellent
ASD:Poor

Obviously

Quote:
Social prowess in ?geeky? settings
NT:Poor
ASD:Excellent

It's not that simple. Geeky settings are more tolerant of social oddity true, but to fit in them a aspie must still have geeky interests; and it's not all aspies that have geeky interests.

Quote:
Number of friends
NT:Many poorly known acquaintances
ASD:Few, but very close

Better that some of the things you say, but still a overgeneralisation.

Quote:
Desire for social power
NT:Large
ASD:Small

Still a overgeneralisation.

Quote:
Honesty
NT:Tactful, Deceptive
ASD:Brutally honest

Not all NTs are deceptive.

Quote:
Childhood / Workplace bullying
NT:Is a bully
ASD:Is often bullied

Not all NTs are bullies (Most of them generally aren't.) and even though aspies are generally victims, aspies can still be bullies.

Quote:
Political interests
NT:Very political
ASD:Apolitical

I guess you never went in the Politics, Philosophy, and Religion forum, aspies can be VERY passionate on politics.

Quote:
Logical reasoning abilities
NT:Poor
ASD:Excellent

I don't think where you are on the spectrum don't make much differences. Even though they like to see themselfs as more logical than NTs, aspies are not. Example; Some aspies thinking that we should diminish the power of elected governments to the point of power being taken over by corporations, even though it would mean the irrelevance of the democracy for which many peoples fought and allowed to brought more freedom, transparency and equality. (See the last point about politics. :wink: )

Quote:
Relative Body Temperature preference
NT:Warmer
ASD:Cooler

Why would there be any difference!? Asperger is a difference of the brain and nervous system, not of the body. At such the body should work at the same temperature. My asperger diagnosis certainly didn't included a thermometer.

Quote:
Dwelling preference
NT:Urban
ASD:Rural

Urban settings may be more crowded, but they allow more anonymity and thus less finger pointing.

Quote:
Engineering skills
NT:Poor
ASD:Excellent

Some aspies got poor engineering skills and some NTs good engineering skills. Again a overgeneralisation.

Quote:
Physical Laziness
NT:Lazy
ASD:Industrious

I am a aspie and I'm the most lazy person I know (At least since RetroGamer87 change of medication; from his own admission.) particulary when it come to physical efforts.

Quote:
Selfishness
NT:Selfish
ASD:Selfless

Some NTs are very generous.

Quote:
Eyes
NT:Slitty, closed partway
ASD:Open wide

Again, there is no physical difference (Outside of the influence from lifestyle and allimentation.) between NTs and aspies.

Quote:
Feeling about socially adept people
NT:Strongly like and respect them
ASD:Strong aversion, find them to be untrustworthy

Depend of the "socially adept" peoples really.

Quote:
Written communication
NT:Poor grammar and spelling
ASD:Impeccable grammar and spelling

I really suck when it come to grammar, propably from ADD. I don't know how peoples are processing about twenty rules at the same time for writing a french sentence. Yet, I'm a aspie.

Quote:
Social Tendencies
NT:Instinctively Antisocial
ASD:Instinctively Social

Most NTs are not sociopath. Though there is nowaday a ever-present discourse that say peoples are inherently selfish, bringing peoples to act in selfish way to "survive" the world. It is possible that NTs are more influed by such discourses.



kraftiekortie
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12 Nov 2014, 11:30 am

Most of these comparisons are fallacious when thought about with some depth. At the very least, overgeneralizations.

Go out in the world more.



engineerbiology
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12 Nov 2014, 11:41 am

Tollorin wrote:
engineerbiology wrote:
Gluten / Casein sensitivity
NT: None
ASD: Sensitive; Opioid-like effects

There is no proof of that, and gluten sensivity may exist, (Considering it separate from the much more serious celiac allergy.) it's very overhyped and many peoples saying themself gluten intolerant are not.

Quote:
Social prowess in typical settings
NT:Excellent
ASD:Poor

Obviously

Quote:
Social prowess in ?geeky? settings
NT:Poor
ASD:Excellent

It's not that simple. Geeky settings are more tolerant of social oddity true, but to fit in them a aspie must still have geeky interests; and it's not all aspies that have geeky interests.

Quote:
Number of friends
NT:Many poorly known acquaintances
ASD:Few, but very close

Better that some of the things you say, but still a overgeneralisation.

Quote:
Desire for social power
NT:Large
ASD:Small

Still a overgeneralisation.

Quote:
Honesty
NT:Tactful, Deceptive
ASD:Brutally honest

Not all NTs are deceptive.

Quote:
Childhood / Workplace bullying
NT:Is a bully
ASD:Is often bullied

Not all NTs are bullies (Most of them generally aren't.) and even though aspies are generally victims, aspies can still be bullies.

Quote:
Political interests
NT:Very political
ASD:Apolitical

I guess you never went in the Politics, Philosophy, and Religion forum, aspies can be VERY passionate on politics.

Quote:
Logical reasoning abilities
NT:Poor
ASD:Excellent

I don't think where you are on the spectrum don't make much differences. Even though they like to see themselfs as more logical than NTs, aspies are not. Example; Some aspies thinking that we should diminish the power of elected governments to the point of power being taken over by corporations, even though it would mean the irrelevance of the democracy for which many peoples fought and allowed to brought more freedom, transparency and equality. (See the last point about politics. :wink: )

Quote:
Relative Body Temperature preference
NT:Warmer
ASD:Cooler

Why would there be any difference!? Asperger is a difference of the brain and nervous system, not of the body. At such the body should work at the same temperature. My asperger diagnosis certainly didn't included a thermometer.

Quote:
Dwelling preference
NT:Urban
ASD:Rural

Urban settings may be more crowded, but they allow more anonymity and thus less finger pointing.

Quote:
Engineering skills
NT:Poor
ASD:Excellent

Some aspies got poor engineering skills and some NTs good engineering skills. Again a overgeneralisation.

Quote:
Physical Laziness
NT:Lazy
ASD:Industrious

I am a aspie and I'm the most lazy person I know (At least since RetroGamer87 change of medication; from his own admission.) particulary when it come to physical efforts.

Quote:
Selfishness
NT:Selfish
ASD:Selfless

Some NTs are very generous.

Quote:
Eyes
NT:Slitty, closed partway
ASD:Open wide

Again, there is no physical difference (Outside of the influence from lifestyle and allimentation.) between NTs and aspies.

Quote:
Feeling about socially adept people
NT:Strongly like and respect them
ASD:Strong aversion, find them to be untrustworthy

Depend of the "socially adept" peoples really.

Quote:
Written communication
NT:Poor grammar and spelling
ASD:Impeccable grammar and spelling

I really suck when it come to grammar, propably from ADD. I don't know how peoples are processing about twenty rules at the same time for writing a french sentence. Yet, I'm a aspie.

Quote:
Social Tendencies
NT:Instinctively Antisocial
ASD:Instinctively Social

Most NTs are not sociopath. Though there is nowaday a ever-present discourse that say peoples are inherently selfish, bringing peoples to act in selfish way to "survive" the world. It is possible that NTs are more influed by such discourses.


It's quite amusing that people are misinpreting what I said about the traits.
The SUM is important, NOT the individual trait. Of course neurotypicals with excellent logic exist! DUH!

I only answer in more dept if you actually read what I told about these autism/neurotypical traits.

Otherwise, I won't even read the rest of your criticism.



engineerbiology
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12 Nov 2014, 11:50 am

Janissy wrote:
engineerbiology wrote:
If there is a genetic link between autism and open-wide eyes,

There isn't. You have confused "open wide" with "wide set"- and even that link is pretty tenuous and in dispute.

Quote:
there is also a link between neurotypical and the opposite of open wide eyes, = slitty closed eyes.


This is the problem with characterizing things in polar opposites. Even if there was a link between autism and wide open eyes (which there is not, the tenuous link is wide set), this does not mean that everybody without autism therefore has eyes which are slitty and closed. If X is always open, that does not mean that not-X is always closed.

Your photos of homo sapien and neanderthal skulls don't demonstrate anything about AS or NT people.


It is my contention that difference between neurotypical individuals and an aspergian individual is that they differ in the opening of the eyes. You'll never find any scientific article about that, because It my opinion(Drew Mcpherson has observe this trait, and I agree). It is not yet studied in the available literature today, but perhaps it will in the future.



grbiker
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12 Nov 2014, 12:50 pm

Thanks, I like the visualization of the spring to explain your four axis idea, but if you don't mind, I think it is incomplete.

You need to stretch the spring a little bit, then pluck it so it vibrates.

Now we have tension, frequency and wavelength to thicken the plot.

There, that seems to fit my understanding better. :)



engineerbiology
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12 Nov 2014, 1:33 pm

grbiker wrote:
Thanks, I like the visualization of the spring to explain your four axis idea, but if you don't mind, I think it is incomplete.

You need to stretch the spring a little bit, then pluck it so it vibrates.

Now we have tension, frequency and wavelength to thicken the plot.

There, that seems to fit my understanding better. :)

LOL

I don't know how to react, to be honest :). Are you serious? Well, I definitely have problems in understanding jokes ;)



engineerbiology
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12 Nov 2014, 3:50 pm

Where are all the fans of this beautiful theory of autism???



grbiker
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12 Nov 2014, 3:55 pm

I am serious, in a jovial/joking way.

I am a keen observer of natural/physical processes, it is a large part of my work. The other part is interpreting and replicating those observations.

I feel that when a natural phenomenon is being explained, there are two ways it goes, either over-simplification for the sake of brevity for the general population (the one dimensional dumbed down version) or the more nuanced and complex explanations meant for the more educated/specialized audience. Neither tell the whole story (the whole story is being revealed, slowly).

In terms of adding dimensions to something as complex and barely understood as the psychological spectrum, I feel you have to go all the way and add the dimensions of time, motion, stress (both mechanical and biological), historical data, etc. to get at the Truth. That is hard to do, and at this time simply not possible, but people are working on it. Looking at it this way, we know we are a long way off from truly understanding something as complex as the psychological spectrum and we can agree that something posited could be along the path of truth, or it could turn out to be wrong, but interesting and inspiring nonetheless.

Thank you for your contribution.



engineerbiology
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12 Nov 2014, 4:07 pm

grbiker wrote:
I am serious, in a jovial/joking way.

I am a keen observer of natural/physical processes, it is a large part of my work. The other part is interpreting and replicating those observations.

I feel that when a natural phenomenon is being explained, there are two ways it goes, either over-simplification for the sake of brevity for the general population (the one dimensional dumbed down version) or the more nuanced and complex explanations meant for the more educated/specialized audience. Neither tell the whole story (the whole story is being revealed, slowly).

In terms of adding dimensions to something as complex and barely understood as the psychological spectrum, I feel you have to go all the way and add the dimensions of time, motion, stress (both mechanical and biological), historical data, etc. to get at the Truth. That is hard to do, and at this time simply not possible, but people are working on it. Looking at it this way, we know we are a long way off from truly understanding something as complex as the psychological spectrum and we can agree that something posited could be along the path of truth, or it could turn out to be wrong, but interesting and inspiring nonetheless.

Thank you for your contribution.

ok :wink:


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http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt270321.html