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How apart do you think AS is to LFA/HFA?
slightly 24%  24%  [ 15 ]
slightly 24%  24%  [ 15 ]
Moderate 23%  23%  [ 14 ]
Moderate 23%  23%  [ 14 ]
Extreme 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Extreme 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 62

pyraxis
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01 May 2005, 2:16 pm

Fascinating article, Sophist, I'd like to read the study in full text too.

Just to clarify, grey matter is the material in the brain where thought processes take place, and white matter is the material that carries connections between different parts of the brain.

I would love to see a more detailed MRI study which presents the same tasks to ASP and HFA groups and then compares which areas of the brain are active in each group. For instance, carrying out a short conversation, reading a passage of text, doing a math problem, recognizing a face, recognizing emotional expression, etc. I suspect that there would be some significant differences between ASP's and HFA's, and between both and NT's.

I agree that the DSM-IV criteria are in sore need of revision. Right now, LFA, HFA and ASP seem to be categorized by the ability to function in society, with LFA being the most impaired and ASP being the least. I think it would be more accurate to divide up the spectrum by the way one processes information. The classic image of an Aspie is a person who relies on logic, facts, and literal meaning, sees the part before the whole, and has trouble recognizing and/or expressing emotion. The classic Autie relies on pattern and intuition, finds unusual ways of learning (like Ghosthunter's pictoral approach), and communicates more through metaphor and imagery than straightforward logic. (Is this an accurate summary, people, or am I missing things?)

Both can have lower and higher degrees of functioning. I know the speech delay is considered the key difference between ASP and HFA but I wonder if that simplifies the issue too much. How much is a speech delay dependent on overall IQ and how much on autism-related sensory issues? Right now one of the official criteria of Asperger's is an average to high IQ, but to me that seems suspiciously like saying autism is necessarily correlated with mental retardation, when they are two entirely separate issues.

Oh and I believe Elfman is also HFA.



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01 May 2005, 6:43 pm

Yes, "grey matter can be understood as the parts of the brain responsible for information processing; whereas, white matter is responsible for information transmission. In addition, grey matter does not have a myelin sheath and does not regenerate after injury unlike white matter".

You know, with HFA I think there is also a large spectrum within itself. And I noticed in the abstract of the study that they listed only LFA and HFA and not any sort of moderate range. I wonder where this study's HFAers fell along the line of functioning. Because, as I have said, I have met some HFAers who I would have thought were AS if they hadn't eventually told me. So, I wonder how High-Functioning their HFAers were...


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Ghosthunter
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02 May 2005, 2:25 pm

some facts and details posted wrote:

Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:01 am    
Post subject: ...
-----------------
This is an abstract I copied from The Archives
of General Psychiatry. Quite interesting. Would
have liked to read the full text (had to pay for it
though).

Investigation of Neuroanatomical Differences
Between Autism and Asperger Syndrome

Linda J. Lotspeich, MD; Hower Kwon, MD; Cynthia
M. Schumann, BS; Susanna L. Fryer, BA; Beth L.
Goodlin-Jones, PhD; Michael H. Buonocore, PhD;
Cathy R. Lammers, MD; David G. Amaral, PhD;
Allan L. Reiss, MD

Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2004;61:291-298.

ABSTRACT:

Background Autism and Asperger syndrome
(ASP) are neurobiological conditions with overlapping
behavioral symptoms and of unknown etiologies.
Results from previous autism neuroimaging studies
have been difficult to replicate, possibly owing to site
differences in subject samples, scanning procedures,
and image-processing methods. We sought (1) to
determine whether low-functioning autism (LFA; IQ<70),
high-functioning autism (HFA; IQ>=70), and ASP
constitute distinct biological entities as evidenced by
neuroanatomical measures, and (2) to assess for
intersite differences.

Methods Case-control study examining coronally
oriented 124-section spoiled gradient echo images
acquired on 3 magnetic resonance imaging (MRI)
systems, and processed by BrainImage 5.X.
Participants were recruited and underwent scanning
at 2 academic medicine departments. Participants
included 4 age-matched groups of volunteer boys
aged 7.8 to 17.9 years (13 patients with LFA, 18
with HFA, 21 with ASP, and 21 control subjects),
and 3 volunteer adults for neuroimaging reliability.
Main outcome measures included volumetric
measures of total, white, and gray matter for
cerebral and cerebellar tissues.

Results Intersite differences were seen for subject
age, IQ, and cerebellum measures. Cerebral gray
matter volume was enlarged in both HFA and LFA
compared with controls (P = .009 and P = .04,
respectively). Cerebral gray matter volume in ASP
was intermediate between that of HFA and controls,
but nonsignificant. Exploratory analyses revealed a
negative correlation between cerebral gray matter
volume and performance IQ within HFA but not ASP.
A positive correlation between cerebral white matter
volume and performance IQ was observed within ASP
but not HFA.

Conclusions Lack of replication between previous
autism MRI studies could be due to intersite differences
in MRI systems and subjects' age and IQ. Cerebral
gray tissue findings suggest that ASP is on the mild
end of the autism spectrum. However, exploratory
assessments of brain-IQ relationships reveal differences
between HFA and ASP, indicating that these conditions
may be neurodevelopmentally different when patterns
of multiple measures are examined. Further investigations
of brain-behavior relationships are indicated to confirm
these findings.

From Pyraxis!........
I would love to see a more detailed MRI study which
presents the same tasks to ASP and HFA groups and
then compares which areas of the brain are active in
each group. For instance, carrying out a short conversation,
reading a passage of text, doing a math problem,
recognizing a face, recognizing emotional expression,
etc. I suspect that there would be some significant
differences between ASP's and HFA's, and between
both and NT's.

The classic image of an Aspie is a person who relies on
logic, facts, and literal meaning, sees the part before the
whole, and has trouble recognizing and/or expressing
emotion. The classic Autie relies on pattern and intuition,
finds unusual ways of learning (like Ghosthunter's pictoral
approach), and communicates more through metaphor and
imagery than straightforward logic. (Is this an accurate
summary, people, or am I missing things?)

Both can have lower and higher degrees of functioning.
I know the speech delay is considered the key difference
between ASP and HFA but I wonder if that simplifies the
issue too much. How much is a speech delay dependent
on overall IQ and how much on autism-related sensory
issues? Right now one of the official criteria of Asperger's
is an average to high IQ, but to me that seems suspiciously
like saying autism is necessarily correlated with mental
retardation, when they are two entirely separate issues.

Sophist
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Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 9:43 am    
Post subject: ...
---------------------
Yes, "grey matter can be understood as the parts of
the brain responsible for information processing;
whereas, white matter is responsible for information
transmission. In addition, grey matter does not have
a myelin sheath and does not regenerate after injury
unlike white matter".

You know, with HFA I think there is also a large spectrum
within itself. And I noticed in the abstract of the study that
they listed only LFA and HFA and not any sort of moderate
range. I wonder where this study's HFAers fell along the line
of functioning. Because, as I have said, I have met some
HFAers who I would have thought were AS if they hadn't
eventually told me. So, I wonder how High-Functioning
their HFAers were...


I will appologize for the long weekend dramatic
pause on responses on this this rather complicated
topic. My HFA translation meter is filled with alot
of data and I say thanks to those upto this point
for being contributive in this rather weird and strange
puzzle.

As you know I started with a base root. A simple
statement and a randon 20¢ tidbit for Alex's sake.
I am glad that it is making people think. I hope this
thread continues because there is much more depth
to this rabbits hole, and I am amazed how little we
individually know, but in a combined form, can
formulate as a co-operative unit, or group. The pieces
link, but sometimes indirectly to start to process of
thought. SO PLEASE continue posts so the best
results can be properly evaluated. I am still
digesting and just want you folks to know I am glad
that these results are coming in in trickles then drops,
then rushes.

Most Amazed, and Grateful,
Ghosthunter.....Rake! Rake! goes my HFA fine-tooth-comb!!

P.S.... A new tidbit I am raking at is the ADHD & Autism
issue that popped up quite recently. I feel this is something
to look into!

HMMMM?



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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23 Jul 2008, 9:19 am

Depends on the individual and how "low functioning" they are. Low Functioning is another vague term, much like "empathy", doesn't convey much information about the individual.



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23 Jul 2008, 9:22 am

Well my IQ falls into the high average range and yet I still not classed as HFA and I couldnt talk as a child.



Danielismyname
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23 Jul 2008, 9:39 am

You would be "HFA" if you have a normal or above IQ, and Autism. Some people use the wrong terminology for "HFA" (many equate it to AS).

The psychologist you saw used the wrong terminology.



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23 Jul 2008, 9:57 am

Well I like to think that.
Ive got some kind of brain damage (havnt we all). Like assessment showed superior IQ in some areas but below average and borderline in others consistent with mild damage to some parts of my brain Neuropsychologist said but to be honest Im so sick of all these quacks, theyve been quackin with my head near all my life and all they do is try mess you more.
Oh.. lets go back and what happened n what happened n where are you...
Im not hypnotised dumb ****
but do you want me to show you what HAPPENED and they lock you in room hold you down n stick n prick n Im knocked out becuase Ive been a bad girl
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:



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23 Jul 2008, 10:37 am

Sorry, but personally I am starting to think
I dont have Autism
I dont have ADHD
I dont have DID
I dont have PTSD
I dont have Epilepsy
I dont have Learning Disability
I dont have Personality Disorder
Its the world thats wrong NOT ME



Bradleigh
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23 Jul 2008, 10:40 am

Well you have fit in here.


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23 Jul 2008, 11:26 am

Sophist wrote:
BeeBee said
Quote:
I don't think its a case of avoiding stories about integration as much as lack of knowledge. When NT people, including reporters, think "autism" they think LFA. They don't even find out about HFA or AS or PDD-NOS because they are not looking for it--they can't reseach and write about something they don't know exists.


.

And I thought that a bit careless of them. It felt as though it was an attempt to create a panic. And I think there will be more attention paid to ASDs in general perhaps because of NBC's role, but it was completely false reporting despite any positive outcomes.


That did piss me off, let me tell you. I watched just a little and got frustrated because they seemed to only show kids who were LFA not kids who were across the spectrum. Great. What a way to confuse the world even more as most people think of Autism as the LFA kind. Then anyone else that is dx, laypeople think immediately the dx is incorrect and that overzealous parents want their kids labeled (could be true with very few but not most). I wanted to see more HFA and AS on there. One whole week and nothing regarding some strengths. It was more of a "poor kids" and "poor parents" type of thing, I felt.



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23 Jul 2008, 11:39 am

There's not much difference between "HFA" and "LFA", it's just an IQ score that separates them. People with "HFA" can be nonverbal as adults, and people with "LFA" can have adequate speech as adults.

AS is different to both of those above in appearance, but even AS can be as severe as "LFA" in some ways (on a whole, it's "better" though).



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23 Jul 2008, 11:57 am

Although according to TEACCH one can have a high IQ but still be low-functioning. I tend to agree, since I tend to IQ as rather meaningless in the "real world". What good is a high IQ if you can't be employed? What good is a high IQ if you can't live on your own?

I have a dream someday that the terms Asperger's and PDD-NOS will be gone. They have done nothing but confuse people. I'd like to see just low functioning autism and high functioning autism, based soley on the individual's ability to survive by societies rules, not by IQ.

As for stats I think the general concensous is that 1 in 1000 have "classic" autism or LFA, and that 1 in 150 have some type of Autism spectrum disorder (LFA or HFA). So the vast majority of people on the autism spectrum are high functioning, but does that mean we need to divide that into further categories or can we just uncomplicate things by calling it HFA?

Those with Aspergers, would you feel somehow offended by being grouped in with HFA or PDD-NOSers? Is the Asperger's label that unique or important that it needs to be kept?



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23 Jul 2008, 11:59 am

natesmom wrote:
Sophist wrote:
BeeBee said
Quote:
I don't think its a case of avoiding stories about integration as much as lack of knowledge. When NT people, including reporters, think "autism" they think LFA. They don't even find out about HFA or AS or PDD-NOS because they are not looking for it--they can't reseach and write about something they don't know exists.


.

And I thought that a bit careless of them. It felt as though it was an attempt to create a panic. And I think there will be more attention paid to ASDs in general perhaps because of NBC's role, but it was completely false reporting despite any positive outcomes.


That did piss me off, let me tell you. I watched just a little and got frustrated because they seemed to only show kids who were LFA not kids who were across the spectrum. Great. What a way to confuse the world even more as most people think of Autism as the LFA kind. Then anyone else that is dx, laypeople think immediately the dx is incorrect and that overzealous parents want their kids labeled (could be true with very few but not most). I wanted to see more HFA and AS on there. One whole week and nothing regarding some strengths. It was more of a "poor kids" and "poor parents" type of thing, I felt.

they dont show LFA,its only ever one type,the most profound with obvious MR-LFA is not always profound,permenently locked in with significant MR but that is what they show it as,shows like that are not speaking for all,they're ignoring probably almost all on the spectrum so they can make it look more interesting on tv.


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23 Jul 2008, 12:09 pm

Mage,

It's around 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 with Classic Autism, which is HFA/LFA combined. However, I know you use a different definition of "HFA"
It's around 1 in 100 for PDD-NOS (this can run from Mild Asperger's up to near-Classic Autism)
Asperger's is around 1 in 5,000/10,000

This is in the US (Asperger's has a different prevalence in countries that include much of PDD-NOS, and those with Classic Autism who gain speech in with it).



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23 Jul 2008, 12:55 pm

[/quote]

That did piss me off, let me tell you. I watched just a little and got frustrated because they seemed to only show kids who were LFA not kids who were across the spectrum. Great. What a way to confuse the world even more as most people think of Autism as the LFA kind. Then anyone else that is dx, laypeople think immediately the dx is incorrect and that overzealous parents want their kids labeled (could be true with very few but not most). I wanted to see more HFA and AS on there. One whole week and nothing regarding some strengths. It was more of a "poor kids" and "poor parents" type of thing, I felt.[/quote]

they dont show LFA,its only ever one type,the most profound with obvious MR-LFA is not always profound,permenently locked in with significant MR but that is what they show it as,shows like that are not speaking for all,they're ignoring probably almost all on the spectrum so they can make it look more interesting on tv.[/quote]

Sorry, that is what I meant.