the killings of black people in usa by the police

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staremaster
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31 Dec 2014, 10:24 pm

It's a problem; police have and need a combat mentality, but their enemies are civilians. They perceive a threat and "neutralize" it, then when it turns out there wasn't a threat, they are protected from the consequences because they were "doing their jobs" and were afraid.
But cops do need this mentality; look at the recent random murders of NYPD officers, or Army Major Hassan's shooting rampage.



Dox47
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31 Dec 2014, 11:41 pm

white_as_snow wrote:
Shoot his hands, both. I know it sounds silly, but its a human life we are talking about. Police should practice more on this type of actions.

The best would be if that storm-troopers star wars sleep-bullet was invented and put in use. Or maybe the police should invent a some sort of police-uniform shield that protects them from bullets.

Instead of using money on fighting in middle east, usa should use the money to invent this type of things.


I have no love for the police, but you're off in fantasy land here, most handguns don't have the mechanical accuracy necessary to make the shots you're describing, and the cops have more important things to do than spend all day practicing making an impossible shot that is incredibly unlikely to ever be necessary, as most cops never even draw their weapon. As to non-lethals, the Taser is currently the best we've got, and it's far from perfect. Further, there's big money in it, again, see Taser, so it's not lack of resources or interest, but technological limitations holding the field back. I'm not trying to sound nasty here, but you really should educate yourself on the topic if it concerns you, otherwise you're just making unhelpful suggestions.


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em_tsuj
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01 Jan 2015, 12:36 am

Fnord wrote:
Here's what I was taught while serving in the military: Shoot an armed person in the arm, and he'll just use his other one to shoot you; shoot him in the legs and he can still shoot back; but shoot him in the center of mass, and the physical shock alone should stop him.

The torso is the bigger target, and oftentimes the Good Guys don't have much time to line up the perfect shot when the Bad Guy is already shooting to kill!

And that's the whole point - the Bad Guys always seem to be shooting to kill, not stun. So it is safer to authorize the Good Guys to use deadly force as well - safer for the Good Guys, and safer for any hostages and bystanders within range of the Bad Guy's gun.

So stop trying to second-guess the Good Guys when they remove the threat of an armed and violent Bad Guy. In fact, you should be grateful that there is one less Bad Guy to rob, rape, and murder you!


What does this have to do with unarmed civilians in a non-combat situation? How do you know the person is a bad guy? Before an arrest takes place, the person is just a suspect. Your mentality is the reason why people are dead. It's the same mentality those cops have.



em_tsuj
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01 Jan 2015, 12:41 am

To the original poster, I don't know if it is racism or not. Every situation is different.

Will a civil war break out? No. Things haven't gotten bad enough yet for there to be an uprising on a massive scale. I do hope that some reforms are made in the way these incidents are reviewed. Realistically though, cops are going to keep killing people and getting away with it.



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01 Jan 2015, 12:52 am

em_tsuj wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Here's what I was taught while serving in the military: Shoot an armed person in the arm, and he'll just use his other one to shoot you; shoot him in the legs and he can still shoot back; but shoot him in the center of mass, and the physical shock alone should stop him. The torso is the bigger target, and oftentimes the Good Guys don't have much time to line up the perfect shot when the Bad Guy is already shooting to kill! And that's the whole point - the Bad Guys always seem to be shooting to kill, not stun. So it is safer to authorize the Good Guys to use deadly force as well - safer for the Good Guys, and safer for any hostages and bystanders within range of the Bad Guy's gun. So stop trying to second-guess the Good Guys when they remove the threat of an armed and violent Bad Guy. In fact, you should be grateful that there is one less Bad Guy to rob, rape, and murder you!
What does this have to do with unarmed civilians in a non-combat situation? How do you know the person is a bad guy? Before an arrest takes place, the person is just a suspect. Your mentality is the reason why people are dead. It's the same mentality those cops have.
Unarmed civilians reaching for something in their waistbands could be reaching for a weapon, and are thus perceived as deadly threats. Unarmed civilians who modify their toy weapons to look real no longer look like they're unarmed, and are perceived as deadly threats. Unarmed civilians who lunge at armed cops to grab their guns are trying to arm themselves, and are perceived as deadly threats.

Deadly threats must be neutralized, even if it means that they die.

As I've said many times before, unless you have ever been in actual combat, you will never know what it is like to have to make a life-or-death decision faster that it takes someone else to pull a trigger. Thus, you have no real experience to draw on to judge anyone who has had to make such a decision on a daily basis.

Just remember this: You get to sleep peacefully in your bed tonight because armed guardians stand ready to use deadly force on your behalf.


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01 Jan 2015, 2:14 am

em_tsuj wrote:
What does this have to do with unarmed civilians in a non-combat situation? How do you know the person is a bad guy? Before an arrest takes place, the person is just a suspect. Your mentality is the reason why people are dead. It's the same mentality those cops have.


I'm pretty sure trying to steal an officer's gun, punching him, then charging him, shows that he's not exactly a carebear. These things point to someone being a threat to your life. Pretty simple.

Or pointing a firearm at an officer. That's usually considered a, "I'm going to kill you now" form of communication. Again, simple.

The police, and you too, have to follow a set criteria if you want to justifiably kill someone. It'll be in your state's criminal code.


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01 Jan 2015, 2:27 am

Dillogic wrote:
Killing is wrong, yes, but so is letting someone kill you.

There is nothing wrong with killing someone in self-defense if the situation demands it. Quite the contrary.



em_tsuj
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01 Jan 2015, 2:39 pm

Fnord wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Here's what I was taught while serving in the military: Shoot an armed person in the arm, and he'll just use his other one to shoot you; shoot him in the legs and he can still shoot back; but shoot him in the center of mass, and the physical shock alone should stop him. The torso is the bigger target, and oftentimes the Good Guys don't have much time to line up the perfect shot when the Bad Guy is already shooting to kill! And that's the whole point - the Bad Guys always seem to be shooting to kill, not stun. So it is safer to authorize the Good Guys to use deadly force as well - safer for the Good Guys, and safer for any hostages and bystanders within range of the Bad Guy's gun. So stop trying to second-guess the Good Guys when they remove the threat of an armed and violent Bad Guy. In fact, you should be grateful that there is one less Bad Guy to rob, rape, and murder you!
What does this have to do with unarmed civilians in a non-combat situation? How do you know the person is a bad guy? Before an arrest takes place, the person is just a suspect. Your mentality is the reason why people are dead. It's the same mentality those cops have.
Unarmed civilians reaching for something in their waistbands could be reaching for a weapon, and are thus perceived as deadly threats. Unarmed civilians who modify their toy weapons to look real no longer look like they're unarmed, and are perceived as deadly threats. Unarmed civilians who lunge at armed cops to grab their guns are trying to arm themselves, and are perceived as deadly threats.

Deadly threats must be neutralized, even if it means that they die.

As I've said many times before, unless you have ever been in actual combat, you will never know what it is like to have to make a life-or-death decision faster that it takes someone else to pull a trigger. Thus, you have no real experience to draw on to judge anyone who has had to make such a decision on a daily basis.

Just remember this: You get to sleep peacefully in your bed tonight because armed guardians stand ready to use deadly force on your behalf.


Please. I am the enemy combatant/citizen the police are supposed to protect I can't be both of those things simultaneously. In other words, who are the police protecting? Who is the enemy? Am I a citizen or an enemy? Let me be more explicit. My experience in America is that I am someone who the police are trying to protect everybody else from. I am not a part of the community that the police are trying to protect. I am seen as an enemy, and it is unfair.

Because I am seen as an enemy, in a situation where the cop cannot rationally think before acting, that cop's inaccurate perception of me is going to get me killed. This is real life for me and has been for most of my life. I have to protect myself from the police. I take daily measures not to experience the type of stuff I see on the news or the less dangerous, never publicized, but equally infuriating harassment that takes place because I "fit the profile". I fit the profile because I am not white and affluent.

You can't tell me that I am making it up or that I am paranoid, because i have had too many independent experiences in various locations at different points in my life. And, as you can tell by the anger and protests in black communities all over the U.S., it is a common experience among black people all over the U.S. Are we lying about racial profiling? Are we unjust in being scared of police and angry about mistreatment by police?

So is a police officer justified in killing me (a non-violent, law-abiding citizen) because he has some negative (often subconscious) perceptions about black men?

One more thing, I didn't really get excited about this stuff until the Eric Garner case. I understand your argument that cops must be cognizant of danger and often must react with deadly force. I also understand some about legal proceedings because I have worked in the criminal justice community. I look at the evidence in each case and make judgments based on that. I don't see any problem with the investigation in Ferguson. I understand why they didn't indict the officer. I don't like how things went down with Trayvon Martin because I believe Trayvon Martin was provoked, but you can reasonably argue that it was a situation where Trayvon Martin's killer thought his life was in danger. But in Eric Garner's case, you have on video a person who did not do anything violent, didn't make any kind of threatening gestures towards the cops or any bystanders, and was not being arrested for a violent crime or a major offense. Your argument does not fit in this case. Look at the video. Did Eric Garner reach for a weapon? Did he throw a punch? Did he make any verbal or physical threats of violence? No.

The police officer responsible for his death needs to be held accountable some sort of way, perhaps through a lawsuit, but no punishment is an insult to Eric Garner's family and black people all over America. It also sets the example that you can do whatever you want when arresting someone and get away with it. That is not what America is supposed to be about. That is not in keeping with the ideals that millions of Americans have died for. We are supposed to be a nation where every citizen is supposed to be treated equally by the government.

You might argue that cases like Eric Garner's are outliers, and I would agree, but I believe that one person dying like this and not getting justice is too many. I don't want to live in a society where reckless cops can kill people and not get punished. I want to see powerless people (no matter what their race) treated fairly by those who are in power. I want to see America continue to grow closer to its ideals of justice and equality.



em_tsuj
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01 Jan 2015, 2:45 pm

Dillogic wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
What does this have to do with unarmed civilians in a non-combat situation? How do you know the person is a bad guy? Before an arrest takes place, the person is just a suspect. Your mentality is the reason why people are dead. It's the same mentality those cops have.


I'm pretty sure trying to steal an officer's gun, punching him, then charging him, shows that he's not exactly a carebear. These things point to someone being a threat to your life. Pretty simple.

Or pointing a firearm at an officer. That's usually considered a, "I'm going to kill you now" form of communication. Again, simple.

The police, and you too, have to follow a set criteria if you want to justifiably kill someone. It'll be in your state's criminal code.


What are you talking about?



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11 Jan 2015, 9:57 am

Fnord wrote:
Yes, I have been in actual combat, so I know how it goes, and it is never so clean and methodical as you see in the movies - not even in "Saving Private Ryan".

I strongly suggest that all of you "peacemakers" go get yourselves some real combat experience, and then you may see how truly ineffective your pacifist coddling of armed criminals really is.


Me too, so in principle I would second that. The only issue I would have is that far too many members of the Police forces tend to shoot first and ask questions last, leading to many wholly unecessary deaths.

My understanding is that in the recent terrorist-style hostage situation in Sydney Australia, both hostages and the hostage-taker were killed by police weapons. The hostage-taker had a shotgun, those killed had bullet wounds. Wonder how many of the hostages killed in Paris were killed by police weapons?


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11 Jan 2015, 10:36 am

I heard on the news those hostages were already dead before those commando dudes attacked.



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11 Jan 2015, 2:09 pm

trollcatman wrote:
I heard on the news those hostages were already dead before those commando dudes attacked.


Please note: I referred to the SYDNEY Australia hostage drama. To the best of my knowledge no commando dudes were involved.


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11 Jan 2015, 2:22 pm

Well to be fair its certainly not just black people who get brutalized and/or killed by the cops where its not necessary there are general problems with police brutality here. There is also racial profiling and racism in the legal system so much of the time black people or other ethnic minorities are targeted, also though police much of the time discriminate towards mentally ill people and homeless people regardless of what color they are. Also probably more likely martial law will break out before any civil war. But yes I've even learned there have been cases of the authorities/government planting addictive drugs like crack or meth into areas largely consisting of minority populations to get them hooked so the quality of the area goes down and they can justify systematic racism towards that group looked into some of that when I was taking sociology courses in college....we have a very dirty and corrupt legal system I'd say.


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11 Jan 2015, 2:31 pm

Fnord wrote:
Here's what I was taught while serving in the military: Shoot an armed person in the arm, and he'll just use his other one to shoot you; shoot him in the legs and he can still shoot back; but shoot him in the center of mass, and the physical shock alone should stop him.

The torso is the bigger target, and oftentimes the Good Guys don't have much time to line up the perfect shot when the Bad Guy is already shooting to kill!

And that's the whole point - the Bad Guys always seem to be shooting to kill, not stun. So it is safer to authorize the Good Guys to use deadly force as well - safer for the Good Guys, and safer for any hostages and bystanders within range of the Bad Guy's gun.

So stop trying to second-guess the Good Guys when they remove the threat of an armed and violent Bad Guy. In fact, you should be grateful that there is one less Bad Guy to rob, rape, and murder you!


And what about the various incidents where police have beat, tazered and/or killed unarmed people? If someones got a gun and is shooting at people I do not think too many people would complain if a police officer shoots them...but whenever possible the least amount of force should be used...like say someone has a gun is suicidal and planning to shoot them-self well proper protocol should by no means be for them to rush in shooting for instance. Different situations need to be handled differently what is appropriate in one situation may not be appropriate in others. Or say there are multiple cops with guns and someone has a knife, probably quite possible to shoot them somewhere non-lethal if necessary before they'll be able to stab anyone to death. Also much of the time things are not as simple as good guys vs. bad guys either.


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11 Jan 2015, 2:42 pm

Fnord wrote:
white_as_snow wrote:
Its still wrong to kill a person.
It is even more wrong to allow another person to kill others.

white_as_snow wrote:
They should invent that thing that stormtropers in star wars has, some typ of blue energy bullet lazer that makes the attacker to sleep in 1 second.
Dream on. Tasers, tear gas, pepper spray, bean-bags, and other non-lethal weapons still leave their targets capable of harming or killing others.

I once saw a man who had been blinded by tear gas start firing blindly as quickly as he could. He killed one soldier and wounded another before he was killed.

Yes, I have been in actual combat, so I know how it goes, and it is never so clean and methodical as you see in the movies - not even in "Saving Private Ryan".

I strongly suggest that all of you "peacemakers" go get yourselves some real combat experience, and then you may see how truly ineffective your pacifist coddling of armed criminals really is.

:roll:



I am willing to bet the majority of situations cops deal with are not really comparable to war combat...so don't really see how they can be compared. If a situation is so bad it needs to be dealt with in that manner perhaps that is grounds to bring in the military rather than trying to militarize the cops. Cops aren't even trained for military combat, hence why its a problem when they try to act like a military force and are always on the offense when their job is to serve and protect....maybe the cops who need more action ought to be in the military instead where they are more likey to encounter situations where deadly force must be used if you don't want to die on a more regular basis...instead of brutalizing the civilian population. I hardly see how it is pacifist coddling of armed criminals to think police need to tone down their shoot first and think later mentality as well as their abuse of power.


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