Page 11 of 11 [ 169 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11

eleventhirtytwo
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 228
Location: Northern Ireland

12 Jan 2015, 10:07 am

So you acknowledge the view that Sharia does not come from Chinese whispers written at least 200 years after Muhammad's death cyberdad?

Now, on to your lovely "examples" of Quranic law. Of those not derivative from the corrupt hadiths, oh wait that's all of them...

You see one of the problems with most translations of the Quran is that they are from the same country. Saudi. Yes, the same country responsible for spreading Wahhabism as a means of extending it's political control... Now, to be fair, translating from Classical Arabic (a language no longer in use) is a rather hard task, as many of the words can have as many as 20 possible translations into modern day Arabic and English. In light of such an issue, to attempt to find the correct translation of a word one would have to look at the context it is used in, alongside all the other times it has been used in the same text.

Say you're an extremist muslim and come across a word which has either the possible translation "hit" or "leave" in reference to what to do if your wife cheats on you, which one are you going to choose? If you were wise and noticed most surahs in the Quran start by saying "God is Merciful", you would likely go "Well, it's obvious! The peaceful translation wins!". However, back to said extremist muslim... Fed by violent ideas backed up by false hadiths created by power hungry despots, he's evidently going to go "Easy! The violent translation wins!". Unfortunately this is a real example. So is cutting off a thieves hands instead of cutting off their means and resources to steal. Now mix this with lazy translators who look up what their friends translated it to, and you have a real problem. Now mix it with translations funded by said power hungry despots, and things get real messy. Similar then happens in what they falsely call "Sharia". For example, the Quran states no punishment for homosexuality. Not being happy with that, extremist despots grabbed the punishment of "stoning to death" from the Bible (proscribed by the Bible for adultery).

If your translation of the Quran says "Peace" and then tells you to kill someone, you probably don't have a very good translation (and chances are it was translated somewhere like Saudi).

*Not to say all Saudi's are bad. I have met many nice and genuine people from there.

**Sorry if my tone is a bit sarcastic, didn't get much sleep last night stressing about my exam lol


_________________
22, entrepreneurial and diagnosed with High Functioning Autism, ADHD, OCD and Tourettes. Also have problems with Anxiety, and more recently depression, although I seem to returning to my optimistic self =)


ZenDen
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2013
Age: 81
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,730
Location: On top of the world

12 Jan 2015, 12:17 pm

Humanaut wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
I imagine your statement was supposed to sound stupid and shallow because of long standing hatreds you may harbor which would then bring your hatred to the fore. You've succeeded. But, I believe, most are not interested.

Most people fully support the ongoing military operations against ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, and similar organizations.


And you have some proof of this categorized by country I hope?

But I think you have nothing to show.



Humanaut
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,390
Location: Norway

12 Jan 2015, 8:45 pm

I don't have the numbers, but the support is so deeply rooted that even the Vatican has given its blessing.



eric76
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,660
Location: In the heart of the dust bowl

12 Jan 2015, 9:05 pm

progaspie wrote:
To me it's interesting that this thread had been moved to PPR, because I feel that it belongs to News and Current Affairs.
This is not a contest between religions- Islams versus Cristianity, but a contest between Civilization and Barbarism. The French terrorists are clients of ISIS who have taken over large swaths of Iraq and Syria.
The world has stood by while these sponsors of terrorism has committed mass murder and beheadings and have challenged the west to react.
Thousands of US servicemen have died trying to bring democracy to Iraq after the overthrow of Sadam Hussien. We owe it to those servicemen to continue their job they started and send the army back in to free the enslaved people in Northern Iraq and defeat ISIS.


You can't hand Democracy to someone and expect them to value it. They are more likely to despise you for it. The only way for people to value Democracy is for them to have earned it with their own hard work and sacrifices.

For a good example, look at the US today where people mouth the words Democracy but what they really want is power and money.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

12 Jan 2015, 9:10 pm

Most Christians/Jews don't believe in all the Bible literally. Most Muslims don't believe in all the Koran literally.



eric76
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,660
Location: In the heart of the dust bowl

12 Jan 2015, 9:17 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Self-declared Muslims who pretend to represent Islam while at the same time rejecting Sharia cannot be taken seriously. They are not Muslims, and would be executed for apostasy and blasphemy in regions governed by Islamic law. What they say means nothing compared to the atrocities committed under Sharia, which is the true face of Islam.


I've read some fairly spirited defense by muslim scholars about how Shariah Law is not mentioned in the Al-Quran but instead there is reference to a "just society" (which they leave deliberately vague).

I've dug up my English translation of the Quran, the following Surah states the issue of law clearly!!
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114
Surah 6:114 contains clear confirmation that:
- God is the only source of law.
- The Quran has all the details.

This means two things i) a true muslim must follow the Quran in all matters relating to law and ii) cherry picking what Surahs in the Quran to follow is not acceptable for a true muslim. It's fairly self-evident that a true muslim MUST follow ALL the Quranic teaching, including how to deal with non-believers.

To conclude the only law a true muslim can follow is "shariah law" which codifies the instructions of Allah directly from the Quran. For example
- requiring that prisoners be punished through amputation of limbs
- adultery punished by 100 lashes and/or execution by stoning
- a muslim not practicing the 5 pillars of islam punishable by death
- where a society is predominantly muslim then secular law (non-Quranic) is not permitted
- in a muslim majority society you are permitted to exclude all non-muslims from positions of government, administration or policy
- non-muslims are required to pay a tax (even if they are starving) in order to live with muslims until such time they convert, the Jizya tax is actually referred to as a symbol of humiliation on non-believers.
- in islam a muslim female is forbidden to marry a non-muslim (this is exactly the same as modern christian cults in order their numbers increase)
- non-muslims are not permitted to testify legally against a muslim (this basically means a muslim can rape or torture a non-muslim such as happens in Egypt or Pakistan and not face legal prosecution on the basis their victim has no legal rights)

Basically, the command of non-Muslims over Muslims in never admissible, because God Almighty said: 'Allah will not give access to the infidels (i.e. Christians) to have authority over believers (Muslims) {Qur'an 4:141}. For God - Glory be to Him - has elevated Muslims to the highest rank (over all men) and foreordained to them the might, by virtue of the Quranic text. Furthermore the Quran is EXPLICIT
- muslims must not dress like non-muslims (this alone means most muslims are not following the Quran)
- attend non-muslim festivals (i.e. Christmas)
- work for non-muslims in a role where they must obey (again plenty not following this Quranic edict)

In light of the Charlie Hebdo attack, many muslims claim they support western freedom of speech. Once again this is against their Quranic teaching. Infact the Quran makes it clear that

Surah 33:57 Those who insult [aa-dh-aa] God and His Messenger will be rejected by God in this world and the next—He has prepared a humiliating punishment for them— 58 and those who undeservedly insult [aa-dh-aa] believing men and women will bear the guilt of slander and obvious sin.

Surah 9:61 There are others who insult [aa-dh-aa] the Prophet by saying, "He will listen to anything." [Muhammad,] Say, "He listens for your own good" . . . An agonizing torment awaits those who insult [aa-dh-aa] God’s Messenger

Quranic law applies to non-believers the same, so transgression involving slandering the prophet is technically a punishable offense. A true muslim is therefore vindicated by the Quran for seeking retribution such as committed against Charlie Hebdo's cartoonists....


In other words, they should have absolutely no respect for anyone who differs from them at all?

Sooner or later, the world will stop putting up with people like that.

The sooner, the better.



Humanaut
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,390
Location: Norway

13 Jan 2015, 12:09 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Most Muslims don't believe in all the Koran literally.

This might to some extent be true when it comes to Western followers of Muhammad, but a large part of the Islamic world is ruled by Sharia, and constant attempts to expand these laws have led to horrible atrocities. A recent example from Nigeria:



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,146

13 Jan 2015, 4:52 am

eleventhirtytwo wrote:
Say you're an extremist muslim and come across a word which has either the possible translation "hit" or "leave" in reference to what to do if your wife cheats on you, which one are you going to choose? If you were wise and noticed most surahs in the Quran start by saying "God is Merciful", you would likely go "Well, it's obvious! The peaceful translation wins!".


I'm not a muslim, but I worked in a muslim country where I mixed with muslims and purchased an English translation of the Al-Quran. Yes it's translated in Saudi Arabia as are 95% of modern Engish translations.

I think many muslims delegate understanding of Surahs to Hadith written by various scholars over the centuries and to clerics who interpret the Surahs in the local mosques. The latter is no different to christians who delegate interpretation of scriptures to priests.



trollcatman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Dec 2012
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,919

13 Jan 2015, 8:16 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Most Christians/Jews don't believe in all the Bible literally. Most Muslims don't believe in all the Koran literally.


That's just because they can't read Classical Arabic so they have no idea what it says :twisted: