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FMX
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11 Jan 2015, 8:11 am

cyberdad wrote:
The thing you need to consider is that Allah does not actually speak to self-declared muslims. He only speaks to prophets.


Hmm, well that's rather inconvenient (or convenient, depending on your point of view), because it seems likely that Mohammed will forever remain the last prophet of Allah. It's probably too hard to qualify as a prophet in the modern world. Joseph Smith had a good go at it, but that was 200 years ago and even so he has < 1% of the followers that Mohammed has.


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11 Jan 2015, 8:26 am

Adamantium wrote:
Another thing about religious people is that they seem to spend most of their time exhorting each other to be strong in their faith, suggesting that they really don't believe but are trying to talk themselves into it.

How can someone come to believe in or love this apparently imaginary being without being able to freely mentally explore the concepts around it? The whole business of faith makes no objective sense at all.


It's a bit like suspension of disbelief.



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11 Jan 2015, 10:35 am

FMX wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
The thing you need to consider is that Allah does not actually speak to self-declared muslims. He only speaks to prophets.


Hmm, well that's rather inconvenient (or convenient, depending on your point of view), because it seems likely that Mohammed will forever remain the last prophet of Allah. It's probably too hard to qualify as a prophet in the modern world. Joseph Smith had a good go at it, but that was 200 years ago and even so he has < 1% of the followers that Mohammed has.


MEH, tHere have been millions of prophets since the time of Muhammad.

A prophet is simply someone who connects to the creative mind beyond just manufactured ego.

God is an equal opportunity employer. GOD is all about the CHANCE and OPPORTUNITY to TRULY be great IN UNDERSTANDING GOD; not the promise OR ANOINTING, or whatever other tribal leaning abstract construct some little or big group of silly little humans come up with to tell folks their 'quarterback' is better than the opposing team's 'quarterback'.

Yes, OF COURSE GOD exists AS MOTHER NATURE TRUE AKA ALL THAT IS but no human RULES GOD.

And that's the truth.

And why that SIMPLE TRUTH IS so hard to understand FOR MOST PEOPLE is simply because people, in general, will believe AND ACT ON ALMOST anything other folks tell them to retain social acceptance, as an innate human tribal instinct necessary through human evolution for survival, as a social animal.

Outcasts like Jesus, if he really exists, can overcome that huge obstacle, as large, as a GOLIATH camel of desire going through the smallest hole, as needle of need imaginable.

And when 'they' do, they can connect to GOD in a deep communicative SYMBOLIC way; however, that communication can NEVER EVER BE TAKEN AS LITERAL TRUTH for anyone else; HOWEVER, others may interpret the abstract metaphorical symbolic communication in another or similar way.

IT IS ONLY TRUTH in the eye of the beholder.

Yes, GOD's TRUTH IS BEAUTY BUT ONLY BEAUTY FOR THE BEHOLDER
OF
IT.

OH AND 'hear' is two examples of GROUPS of prophets and their prophecies here, linked below.

"The words of the prophets are written on the concert hall walls" to paraphrase 'RUSH', as well.





Again, 'GOD IS AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER'.

Jesus and Muhammad didn't have the benefit of mass communication to both tell and record their prophecy as their own personal Truth about GOD.

All we have is 'HEAR' say, for whatever it was 'they' actually said, per initial and then traditional oral tradition, if they existed and actually said what is currently revised, written, and recorded about THAT.

One thing for sure is, the Beatles and Led Zeppelin existed and their prophecies STILL remain unadulterated on Youtube now, and perhaps as long as humans WILL TO EXIST, in the future, however that may come in NOW. :)

Anyway, Have a nice 'day in the life' of now. ;)


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11 Jan 2015, 12:39 pm

I think the burr under my saddle has to do with the apparent acceptance of this radicalization by Muslims at all levels.

When I say at all levels I include the most holy and powerful of their belief.

The reason for this is the complicit nature they reveal through their silence/inaction. In the Roman Catholic religion (as an example) if a Bishop (for example) is accused of impropriety he is investigated and if the accusations are found true the Bishop is castigated in some form or another, often very publicly. This is also true of other organized religions.

But not in Islam. When have you heard of a murderous imam (and there seem to be many) being castigated by a superior? Where have you heard believers being told they follow a sick person and that they should not follow him?

I have never heard those things, and what's more important, neither have Muslims. This translates into a direct, if unspoken, edict: DO AS YOU WISH AND INTERPRETE THE KORAN AS YOU WISH. This is what the heads of the Islamic faith preach: Do as you will to unbelievers. Which is essentially what Muslims have always been taught. And they bomb "as they will" knowing they do nothing wrong, back by their religion's silence, And every Muslim on the street knows this.

At first I was upset at what I saw as the average Muslim's silence on the murders taking place all around the world, but now I feel this is actually how they are directed to behave by their religious leader's silence.

If one of our stalwart Muslim contributors can help me understand in a different manner please do so.



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11 Jan 2015, 1:16 pm

ZenDen wrote:
I think the burr under my saddle has to do with the apparent acceptance of this radicalization by Muslims at all levels.

When I say at all levels I include the most holy and powerful of their belief.

The reason for this is the complicit nature they reveal through their silence/inaction. In the Roman Catholic religion (as an example) if a Bishop (for example) is accused of impropriety he is investigated and if the accusations are found true the Bishop is castigated in some form or another, often very publicly. This is also true of other organized religions.

But not in Islam. When have you heard of a murderous imam (and there seem to be many) being castigated by a superior? Where have you heard believers being told they follow a sick person and that they should not follow him?

I have never heard those things, and what's more important, neither have Muslims. This translates into a direct, if unspoken, edict: DO AS YOU WISH AND INTERPRETE THE KORAN AS YOU WISH. This is what the heads of the Islamic faith preach: Do as you will to unbelievers. Which is essentially what Muslims have always been taught. And they bomb "as they will" knowing they do nothing wrong, back by their religion's silence, And every Muslim on the street knows this.

At first I was upset at what I saw as the average Muslim's silence on the murders taking place all around the world, but now I feel this is actually how they are directed to behave by their religious leader's silence.

If one of our stalwart Muslim contributors can help me understand in a different manner please do so.


It's not accepted at all, it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us. If you want an article outlining this on the topic of ISIS and providing a couple of the numerous examples of muslims condemning ISIS you should check out this article.

There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.


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11 Jan 2015, 1:54 pm

11:32 wrote:
... it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us ... There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.
I can go along with all that.

But I also ask that moderate believers everywhere speak out more loudly and more often against the violently radical elements of their own stated religions - whether Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, or Whatever.

I am not asking you to apologize for anything. Instead, I am asking you to be more vocal in your condemnations of false Islamists.

Please?


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11 Jan 2015, 2:12 pm

[/quote]It's not accepted at all, it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us. If you want an article outlining this on the topic of ISIS and providing a couple of the numerous examples of muslims condemning ISIS you should check out this article.

There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.[/quote]

Thank you for your reply. I'm sorry many Muslims are getting sick of us being killed and somehow feeling being held morally responsible; we are tired of being killed too. Please forgive us.

But I wasn't asking you to grieve with us. I was wondering...Where is the fatwa declared against these killers and their imams?????? Where is the declaration marking them forever as killers not attached to Islam and that they are NOT REAL MUSLIMS????

I am sure the comments you directed me to are very politically correct (as would be expected), but WHERE is the outrage against these killers for polluting your religion??? Muslims seemed primed to cast death and destruction against any that even write opinions differing with those of Muslim leaders; where are these holier-than-thou leaders when it's time to condemn one of their own???

This is why Muslims flock to war: Because by their silence Muslim leaders (not members of the local Muslim debating team you reference) show their approval.

You have in no way convinced me otherwise.



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11 Jan 2015, 2:37 pm

ZenDen wrote:
11:32 wrote:
It's not accepted at all, it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us. If you want an article outlining this on the topic of ISIS and providing a couple of the numerous examples of muslims condemning ISIS you should check out this article.

There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.


Thank you for your reply. I'm sorry many Muslims are getting sick of us being killed and somehow feeling being held morally responsible; we are tired of being killed too. Please forgive us.

But I wasn't asking you to grieve with us. I was wondering...Where is the fatwa declared against these killers and their imams?????? Where is the declaration marking them forever as killers not attached to Islam and that they are NOT REAL MUSLIMS????

I am sure the comments you directed me to are very politically correct (as would be expected), but WHERE is the outrage against these killers for polluting your religion??? Muslims seemed primed to cast death and destruction against any that even write opinions differing with those of Muslim leaders; where are these holier-than-thou leaders when it's time to condemn one of their own???

This is why Muslims flock to war: Because by their silence Muslim leaders (not members of the local Muslim debating team you reference) show their approval.

You have in no way convinced me otherwise.


Here is a link to an article covering a fatwa issued against ISIS by British muslim leaders and another link to an article covering a fatwa by a sheik from Mauritania against ISIS.

That's not to mention the 190,000 members of the Kurdish army who are currently involved in fighting ISIS on the ground, most of whom are muslim.


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11 Jan 2015, 3:09 pm

ZenDen wrote:
This is why Muslims flock to war: Because by their silence Muslim leaders (not members of the local Muslim debating team you reference) show their approval.

You have in no way convinced me otherwise.

Seriously? You think the reason SOME Muslims wage Jihad is because other Muslims don't denounce it? That's absurd. They go to fight for something, not because fighting is some default mode they enter if a third party doesn't stop them.

There are plenty of Muslims speaking out against violence. If you haven't found them, then you haven't looked, maybe because you don't want to.



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11 Jan 2015, 3:15 pm

eleventhirtytwo wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
11:32 wrote:
It's not accepted at all, it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us. If you want an article outlining this on the topic of ISIS and providing a couple of the numerous examples of muslims condemning ISIS you should check out this article.

There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.


Thank you for your reply. I'm sorry many Muslims are getting sick of us being killed and somehow feeling being held morally responsible; we are tired of being killed too. Please forgive us.

But I wasn't asking you to grieve with us. I was wondering...Where is the fatwa declared against these killers and their imams?????? Where is the declaration marking them forever as killers not attached to Islam and that they are NOT REAL MUSLIMS????

I am sure the comments you directed me to are very politically correct (as would be expected), but WHERE is the outrage against these killers for polluting your religion??? Muslims seemed primed to cast death and destruction against any that even write opinions differing with those of Muslim leaders; where are these holier-than-thou leaders when it's time to condemn one of their own???

This is why Muslims flock to war: Because by their silence Muslim leaders (not members of the local Muslim debating team you reference) show their approval.

You have in no way convinced me otherwise.


Here is a link to an article covering a fatwa issued against ISIS by British muslim leaders and another link to an article covering a fatwa by a sheik from Mauritania against ISIS.

That's not to mention the 190,000 members of the Kurdish army who are currently involved in fighting ISIS on the ground, most of whom are muslim.


I'm pretty sure the Kurds have an agenda (more basic...like survival) other than protecting the Muslim religion against ISIS.

And I'm happy to see some Muslim outrage, even if it doesn't affect many outside these particular small areas (and does it prevent people there from joining radical organizations? I haven't heard about it).

So are you telling me the heads of the Islamic faith will not take up, even the pen against these filthy monsters? That it's left to obscure clerics to voice protest? You strengthen my contention.

It appears these "leaders" are quite happy with the way things are going. Which allows Muslims from all parts of life to participate without fear of losing their place in heaven. It's these leaders inaction which brings condemnation down on Islam, rightfully so. A religion of Peace????????



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11 Jan 2015, 3:28 pm

ZenDen wrote:
eleventhirtytwo wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
11:32 wrote:
It's not accepted at all, it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us. If you want an article outlining this on the topic of ISIS and providing a couple of the numerous examples of muslims condemning ISIS you should check out this article.

There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.


Thank you for your reply. I'm sorry many Muslims are getting sick of us being killed and somehow feeling being held morally responsible; we are tired of being killed too. Please forgive us.

But I wasn't asking you to grieve with us. I was wondering...Where is the fatwa declared against these killers and their imams?????? Where is the declaration marking them forever as killers not attached to Islam and that they are NOT REAL MUSLIMS????

I am sure the comments you directed me to are very politically correct (as would be expected), but WHERE is the outrage against these killers for polluting your religion??? Muslims seemed primed to cast death and destruction against any that even write opinions differing with those of Muslim leaders; where are these holier-than-thou leaders when it's time to condemn one of their own???

This is why Muslims flock to war: Because by their silence Muslim leaders (not members of the local Muslim debating team you reference) show their approval.

You have in no way convinced me otherwise.


Here is a link to an article covering a fatwa issued against ISIS by British muslim leaders and another link to an article covering a fatwa by a sheik from Mauritania against ISIS.

That's not to mention the 190,000 members of the Kurdish army who are currently involved in fighting ISIS on the ground, most of whom are muslim.


I'm pretty sure the Kurds have an agenda (more basic...like survival) other than protecting the Muslim religion against ISIS.

And I'm happy to see some Muslim outrage, even if it doesn't affect many outside these particular small areas (and does it prevent people there from joining radical organizations? I haven't heard about it).

So are you telling me the heads of the Islamic faith will not take up, even the pen against these filthy monsters? That it's left to obscure clerics to voice protest? You strengthen my contention.

It appears these "leaders" are quite happy with the way things are going. Which allows Muslims from all parts of life to participate without fear of losing their place in heaven. It's these leaders inaction which brings condemnation down on Islam, rightfully so. A religion of Peace????????


Uhmm, did you not read what I said - and linked to - or did you ignore the parts inconvenient to your opinion?

I have nothing to prove to you, but the ironic thing is that intolerant and bigoted people like yourself have more in common with groups like ISIS than I will ever have, and your attempts to demonise and ostracise the Muslim community will only ever have the effect of helping them recruit the weak minded and vulnerable out of the belief that they are unwanted and hated by the societies they live in.


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11 Jan 2015, 3:32 pm

Adamantium wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
This is why Muslims flock to war: Because by their silence Muslim leaders (not members of the local Muslim debating team you reference) show their approval.

You have in no way convinced me otherwise.

Seriously? You think the reason SOME Muslims wage Jihad is because other Muslims don't denounce it? That's absurd. They go to fight for something, not because fighting is some default mode they enter if a third party doesn't stop them.

There are plenty of Muslims speaking out against violence. If you haven't found them, then you haven't looked, maybe because you don't want to.


I said MANY Muslims have no problem killing children, torturing, etc. (you know the details, do I have to list them?) and believe they follow the words of the Prophet because the main/head Muslim clerics have not told them it is against Muslim teachings. So they continue to kill, torture and behead.

Do I believe these terrorists are the fine family running a small business downtown here where I live? Stop being foolish. I'm certain many Muslims feel outraged as we do...you won't read me commenting about them. But it's obvious only a concerted effort by Islamic leaders, headed by the highest authorities available, will have any chance at changing this thing which has been allowed to run wild (assuming this wasn't the original intent of course). And they just sit on their hands.

Without a statement from the highest authorities radical Muslims will ignore all else, and continue their actions. Would you have anything to add?



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11 Jan 2015, 3:45 pm

Uhmm, did you not read what I said - and linked to - or did you ignore the parts inconvenient to your opinion?

I have nothing to prove to you, but the ironic thing is that intolerant and bigoted people like yourself have more in common with groups like ISIS than I will ever have, and your attempts to demonise and ostracise the Muslim community will only ever have the effect of helping them recruit the weak minded and vulnerable out of the belief that they are unwanted and hated by the societies they live in.[/quote]

You ignore what I say and rise up in righteous indignation rather than answer the hard questions. If you continue to say I try to "demonise (sic) and ostracise (sic) the Muslim community" I may be forced to call YOU names as well.

But perhaps, by calling down condemnation on your idle religious leaders, a rational Muslim would declare, as you have, I attack your religion? If this is true I solemnly apologize....I didn't know we thought so differently.

But if an attack on me is not justified by my condemnation of Muslim leaders then why are you attacking me instead of being upset with those same inactive leaders? I only speak out about Muslim inactivity in light of the missing proclamations by your leaders. Where have I done otherwise? Will you deliberately misinterpret this?



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11 Jan 2015, 3:54 pm

If you're not trying to demonise and ostracise the muslim community then I apologise, but it certainly looks that way from what you've been writing.

On the topic of "muslim leaders" I should point out that I am a Quranist muslim and so do not believe in organised religion or the legitimacy of anyone to claim more authority on interpreting the word of God than another. The reason I defend those who do is that I do not believe it is ok to discriminate against and criminalise any group, whether it be Jews, African Americans or another.

In the virtues of tolerance, empathy and understanding lies a better world for all.


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11 Jan 2015, 4:06 pm

Fnord wrote:
11:32 wrote:
... it's just that certain conservative news channels - ahem fox ahem - tend to ignore us when we do as it doesn't fit in with the narrative they like to portray of us ... There are many muslims however who are getting sick of the rhetoric that every time some idiot does something while claiming to be a Muslim that they should apologise as if they are responsible for it. We don't ask all Christians to apologise for the KKK or the inquisition, I don't expect all Irish people to apologise because the IRA tried to blow me up when I was four years old and neither should all muslims be expected to apologise for people who more often than not are also killing actual muslims.
I can go along with all that.

But I also ask that moderate believers everywhere speak out more loudly and more often against the violently radical elements of their own stated religions - whether Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, or Whatever.

I am not asking you to apologize for anything. Instead, I am asking you to be more vocal in your condemnations of false Islamists.

Please?


I'm pretty sure he's already done that already in this thread.


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