Been thinking about what happened in France...

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GoonSquad
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10 Jan 2015, 8:42 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

If you kindly would read through my posts you would see what I typed about Mohommed and Islam in general and what I typed about religion.... :roll:


But your opinion about those things is not relevant to this discussion. It's your lack of understanding about satire, free speech, and appropriate discourse that I'm criticizing


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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10 Jan 2015, 8:54 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I happen to LOVE Salman Rushdie and Satanic Verses. Rushdie is positively brilliant. One of my all time fave writers.

And yet many people were deeply offended by his book. They saw it as no different than the Hebdo cartoons. How do you know which offended sensibilities to respect and which to ignore?

You can't read French, can you?


Okay, what if I said to everyone, "Buy a copy of Satanic Verses to support freedom of the press!"

What if some of the people hearing my message don't happen to like Satanic Verses? What if they don't wish to read it? Suddenly, they are against freedom of the press and speech simply because they do not wish to do what I command of them when that isn't true at all. They just don't happen to like the book. That's all. They can support freedom of expression in other ways besides feeling made if they do not buy something they don't like very much, they aren't supporting fundamental freedoms.

Just because I like the book doesn't mean everyone likes it, and it certainly doesn't mean just because someone doesn't like it they are automatically bad.
People are too quick to say, if you don't like something, you are on the wrong side when that isn't always the case.


Here's the thing... By your own previous arguments in this thread, Rushdie shouldn't have written that book and YOU should not like it BECAUSE IT OFFENDS PEOPLE.

Rushdie should have written ANOTHER unoffensive book and you should like THAT BOOK instead.
:roll:



There's a big difference between not liking something and being offended and it's true, most do not like insults, even if they are against another and not aimed at them. Did you know Charlie Hebdo only printed about 60,000 copies each run before this happened? Think of how many people live in Paris and yet they only printed around 60,000.
Now think of how many copies of Satanic Verses has sold. Rushdie's book isn't insulting as much as it just uncovers things. He pretty much says something Mohammed heard could have come from Satan. I don't find that an insult in the least. It's merely an intellectual observation.



GoonSquad
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10 Jan 2015, 9:04 pm

andrethemoogle wrote:
...They're satirizing every religion, not insulting them.

Christ, I honestly see how you don't get it. What, you want them to just exempt Islam from satire because of crazy fundamentalists? These people were heroes for freedom of speech. Religion is something that can be mocked, satirized and made fun of as you are not born into it. You don't choose to be your skin color, but you can choose whether or not to follow a faith.

Dude, that's not why it's okay...

It's about tyranny over the mind of man. EVERYONE should be free to think or say WHATEVER they want NO MATTER HOW WRONG OR STUPID IT MIGHT BE. In that respect, racist speech is, and should be as protected as criticism of religion.


You fight stupid ideas with good ones, not censorship.

By the way, racism is NOT WRONG because people have no control over the color of their skin. It’s wrong because skin color is not a valid way to judge the value of people. However, holding racist views is a good indicator of being a stupid f**k.

See how that works?
:wink:


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GoonSquad
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10 Jan 2015, 9:16 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

There's a big difference between not liking something and being offended and it's true, most do not like insults, even if they are against another and not aimed at them. Did you know Charlie Hebdo only printed about 60,000 copies each run before this happened? Think of how many people live in Paris and yet they only printed around 60,000.
Now think of how many copies of Satanic Verses has sold. Rushdie's book isn't insulting as much as it just uncovers things. He pretty much says something Mohammed heard could have come from Satan. I don't find that an insult in the least. It's merely an intellectual observation.

Gosh, I’m sorry. I did not realize that you were the ultimate arbiter of what is and is not offensive. You need to inform all those millions of Muslims who did, wrongly, take offense at Mr. Rushdie’s book, because they still want to kill him over it…

If only you’d done that years ago, just think of all the money Mr. Rushdie could have saved on security!

:lol:


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10 Jan 2015, 9:23 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

There's a big difference between not liking something and being offended and it's true, most do not like insults, even if they are against another and not aimed at them. Did you know Charlie Hebdo only printed about 60,000 copies each run before this happened? Think of how many people live in Paris and yet they only printed around 60,000.
Now think of how many copies of Satanic Verses has sold. Rushdie's book isn't insulting as much as it just uncovers things. He pretty much says something Mohammed heard could have come from Satan. I don't find that an insult in the least. It's merely an intellectual observation.

Gosh, I’m sorry. I did not realize that you were the ultimate arbiter of what is and is not offensive. You need to inform all those millions of Muslims who did, wrongly, take offense at Mr. Rushdie’s book, because they still want to kill him over it…

If only you’d done that years ago, just think of all the money Mr. Rushdie could have saved on security!

:lol:

That's why I say, if you don't like something, ignore it. If you find something insulting, ignore. That's what most people were doing, now look. It's just ridiculous. These terrorists went and killed all these people over a piece of paper and now there's more attention being paid to what they disapproved of than ever and it's all because of them.
If enough people ignored what they didn't like, whomever is responsible would cease and find something else to focus on that would get them the attention or money they crave. It is a far better solution than this, obviously.



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10 Jan 2015, 10:11 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

There's a big difference between not liking something and being offended and it's true, most do not like insults, even if they are against another and not aimed at them. Did you know Charlie Hebdo only printed about 60,000 copies each run before this happened? Think of how many people live in Paris and yet they only printed around 60,000.
Now think of how many copies of Satanic Verses has sold. Rushdie's book isn't insulting as much as it just uncovers things. He pretty much says something Mohammed heard could have come from Satan. I don't find that an insult in the least. It's merely an intellectual observation.

Gosh, I’m sorry. I did not realize that you were the ultimate arbiter of what is and is not offensive. You need to inform all those millions of Muslims who did, wrongly, take offense at Mr. Rushdie’s book, because they still want to kill him over it…

If only you’d done that years ago, just think of all the money Mr. Rushdie could have saved on security!

:lol:

That's why I say, if you don't like something, ignore it. If you find something insulting, ignore. That's what most people were doing, now look. It's just ridiculous. These terrorists went and killed all these people over a piece of paper and now there's more attention being paid to what they disapproved of than ever and it's all because of them.
If enough people ignored what they didn't like, whomever is responsible would cease and find something else to focus on that would get them the attention or money they crave. It is a far better solution than this, obviously.


Satire isn't just an important form of protest against injustice, in this case, satire may ultimately be a lifesaving device for human beings.

The Middle East is in a continuing state of bringing more freedoms to people who did not have them before.

The reason all the children were killed in Pakistan recently was because a more extremist faction that identifies with the Islam religion DID NOT like the fact that women are gaining greater freedoms and demanding that the more fundamentalist aspects of the religion be exercised or ELSE.

THE SAME DAM thing happened in the U.S. with Christianity and the State in general, as women, minorities, and disabled folks gained greater rights in civil rights.

The last hold-out is homosexuals, and even recently in red state Florida they gain the right to civil unions.

Now as a direct result of the callous actions of a terrorist group AGAINST A GROUP OF FREEDOM FIGHTER journalists with PENS INSTEAD OF SWORDS, the Muslim WORLD IS SPEAKING out as entire countries, per example of Iran, against this horrifying tragedy, AS AN ASSAULT AGAINST ISLAM.

So HELL NO, the efforts of these freedom fighters are NOT IN VAIN, not even in death, as the MAIN FIGHT ABOUT ALL OF THESE TERRORIST ATTACKS IS WITHIN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, where most of the terrorist attacks occur in infighting over how free the countries can be per religion and state working together.

So, as a direct result of all of this IT MAY BE HARDER TO RECRUIT EXTREMISTS in the future when there is greater support AGAINST THESE ACTIONS COUNTRY-wide in Muslim Countries.

Yes, Satire can lead to GREATER FREEDOMS.

I SUGGEST you get a french translation before you judge the satire based on cartoons alone.

There is deeper symbolic meaning with the words in tow, if you are able to understand it, as truly some folks on the spectrum CANNOT understand satire, well at all.

IN fact, some have great difficulty with any metaphor, at all.

It is more than obvious in this case that you are not comprehending the deeper meanings of the satire, per what you have expressed here. It is not just insults, IT IS SATIRE, THE TWO THINGS ARE much DIFFERENT 'species of animals'.

And this satire is proof of that, as it is leading to change in total effect and YES POSITIVE CHANGE PER WHAT satire IS ALL ABOUT, no matter how dark or weird it is.


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10 Jan 2015, 11:32 pm

Aghogday, I am watching SNL right now.

I have no problem with satire. I have typed the same thing over and over.



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10 Jan 2015, 11:34 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I cast the same jaundiced eye at Islam that I do Judaism and Christianity and yes I will criticize all three for whatever I personally disagree with

I would strongly recommend throwing Hinduism and Buddhism in there. On the public level they're every bit as insidious, we just don't hear as much about their problems in the west much as we see the Abrhamics on parade.


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10 Jan 2015, 11:42 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I cast the same jaundiced eye at Islam that I do Judaism and Christianity and yes I will criticize all three for whatever I personally disagree with

I would strongly recommend throwing Hinduism and Buddhism in there. On the public level they're every bit as insidious, we just don't hear as much about their problems in the west much as we see the Abrhamics on parade.


It does seem like nothing on this earth is perfect, eh?



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11 Jan 2015, 12:43 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Aghogday, I am watching SNL right now.

I have no problem with satire. I have typed the same thing over and over.


Well, since you say you have no problem with SATIRE, what is the purpose of this thread in your argument that states that satire is insulting.

Satire is designed to be insulting.

That's the OVERALL purpose of it, to raise an eyebrow, AND GET FOLKS pissed off, and talking about the REAL problem.

And this how I do it, YES SATIRE, when it comes to Christianity.

http://katiemiafrederick.com/2015/01/10/all-seeing-eye-of-kat/

And truly if I did this Kinda thing as a Muslim against the Muslim religion in a Muslim country, I could be potentially killed for it.

And IN FACT, in the not so distant past where I live, I could be killed for doing it, as a Christian fighting back against Christian IGNORANCE AND TRULY Anti-Christ Behavior, per modern Christianity in its former Crusade Glory.

And now all that can happen is I lose Face Book Friends, and FOLLOWERS on BLOGS.. Boo HOO.. I'M NOT CRYING OVER that for sure..;)

As close to ONE million folks at 993,070 have already viewed what I do on Google PLUS.

There's always another avenue, no matter WHO TRIES TO CENSOR WHO THESE days, at least in the free country of the U.S. and the IT HIGHWAY!..:)

https://plus.google.com/+KateMia/posts


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11 Jan 2015, 12:56 am

The religions are not the problem, but, it is the human ego that is the problem. Humans do not want to expect the truth, thus, they turn to the irrational to obtain value for their pathetic existent. It is even true with ideologies as they support blind irrational acceptance. For example, atheism is not about rationality anymore, it is about marketing the atheists identity for profit. Humanity needs the rise of the rationalist, however, this will never happen since humanity will never destroy their ego.



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11 Jan 2015, 1:17 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I cast the same jaundiced eye at Islam that I do Judaism and Christianity and yes I will criticize all three for whatever I personally disagree with

I would strongly recommend throwing Hinduism and Buddhism in there. On the public level they're every bit as insidious, we just don't hear as much about their problems in the west much as we see the Abrhamics on parade.


It does seem like nothing on this earth is perfect, eh?

The fundamental ideas behind any of the five are beautiful. What happens when it becomes a social institution for the average mind is another matter entirely.


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11 Jan 2015, 1:51 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I cast the same jaundiced eye at Islam that I do Judaism and Christianity and yes I will criticize all three for whatever I personally disagree with

I would strongly recommend throwing Hinduism and Buddhism in there. On the public level they're every bit as insidious, we just don't hear as much about their problems in the west much as we see the Abrhamics on parade.


It does seem like nothing on this earth is perfect, eh?

The fundamental ideas behind any of the five are beautiful. What happens when it becomes a social institution for the average mind is another matter entirely.


It could be beautiful to some who like the idea of living the way Abramic religions want you to live, as either a member of the clergy and/or a totally heterosexual married person who never strays from their spouse or questions God, but some people cannot live that way and it only causes them inner pain when they try. So why not let them live the way they know how? If they are divorced and remarried, forgive. If they are gay, forgive. If they cuss, forgive. If they eat pork, forgive. If they create art, believe in science, have Christmas trees and Easter bunnies, forgive. If they are an outspoken woman, forgive.



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11 Jan 2015, 1:54 am

i enjoy satire immensely. it helps me deal with very real frustration about the status quo. it's much better than violence and has the ability to educate.



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11 Jan 2015, 2:42 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
It could be beautiful to some who like the idea of living the way Abramic religions want you to live, as either a member of the clergy and/or a totally heterosexual married person who never strays from their spouse or questions God, but some people cannot live that way and it only causes them inner pain when they try. So why not let them live the way they know how? If they are divorced and remarried, forgive. If they are gay, forgive. If they cuss, forgive. If they eat pork, forgive. If they create art, believe in science, have Christmas trees and Easter bunnies, forgive. If they are an outspoken woman, forgive.

Well right, what I mean is that any holy book is a mixture of principles and politics. Most of the ugly stuff in it is the politics; the principles are why I won't quite throw out the baby with the bath water.


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