Finding a Moral Center Before Changing Others?

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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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16 Jan 2015, 3:45 pm

Isn't it true before you can expect others to do what you want you must find your own moral center, that is, confirming we are all human first and foremost and every single human deserves to have their humanity respected no matter what.

Doesn't it seem if people followed that basic creed so many problems would be eliminated flat out?



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16 Jan 2015, 10:50 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Isn't it true before you can expect others to do what you want you must find your own moral center, that is, confirming we are all human first and foremost and every single human deserves to have their humanity respected no matter what.

Doesn't it seem if people followed that basic creed so many problems would be eliminated flat out?

We shouldn't have to become perfect in an area before identifying the same imperfection in others. Empathy can be productive.

When I was young, a friend and I suffered from the very same ethical failure, so neither of us said anything to each other. A long time passed and we finally talked. We agreed that, instead of staying silent, we should have relied on the strength of our friendship to help each other overcome this failure.


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17 Jan 2015, 12:44 am

Well I can confirm the contrapositive, at least. I'm fairly misanthropic, and certainly don't respect anyone on account of their humanity. I also don't expect people to do what I want.


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17 Jan 2015, 4:46 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Isn't it true before you can expect others to do what you want you must find your own moral center,


You shouldn't expect others to do what you want.



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17 Jan 2015, 4:56 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Isn't it true before you can expect others to do what you want you must find your own moral center...

I'm not sure what you mean by others doing what you want. Are you talking about leading by example?



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17 Jan 2015, 8:24 am

Well, if you're talking about attending to the log in your own eye before the mote in another's, then I can agree with that, for sure.

Generally, I think everyone should focus on self improvement. If someone WANTS your guidance, the give it, but otherwise, BUTT OUT.


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17 Jan 2015, 8:27 am

I think what Ana is speaking to here, is the hypocrisy often seen in folks who attempt to enforce their ethics and morality on others that does NOT seem to be genuinely practiced in 'their' REAL life.

IN other words, the old saying of 'walk the talk' goes on.

A great example, is all this talk about 'love your neighbor as one's self', AND THAT'S IT, NO IFS AND OR BUTS, DOES APPLY, and perhaps the best example in our current day, as generally, ethical behavior in allowing human freedoms are continuing GREATER, at least in the United States, it is still the controversy over whether or not HOMOSEXUALS have a legal RIGHT to form Civil Unions and or Marriages that is STILL the HEIGHT OF HYPOCRISY of what modern Christianity SUPPOSEDLY TALKS TO, overall, but doesn't WALK THE TALK, WHEN IT COMES TO the old 'Jesus adage' of 'LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS one's SELF'.

AND OBVIOUSLY, as science NOW SHOWS, nature creates homosexuality, at least innately, in 20% of all 'cases'.

IT IS GOD THAT IS CREATING HOMOSEXUALS PER the GOD of Mother Nature TRUE, TOO, and not the so-called 'EVIL DARK FORCE' OF THE ENVIRONMENT alone.

AND the Kinsey report shows a majority of humans with some HOMOSEXUAL LEANINGS, when they don't have to worry about getting whipped, BEAT, AND OSTRACIZED, PER surveys given, to assess the OVERALL 'QUEER' INNATE NATURE OF HUMANS, like human's FREER PEACEFUL EASY LOVING cousins, BONOBOS, doing the 'wild thing' with WHOMEVER THEY LIKE OUT IN THE WILD of animal being, TO TEMPER AGGRESSION AND VIOLENCE, AS yeah doing the wild thing can release the SOCIAL BONDING NEUROHORMONE OXYTOCIN, WITHOUT the lies of human complex religions and culture, overall. ;)

And yeah, i'm in the TRUE MINORITY (according to the Kinsey report) of males WHO like 'VAGINA' TOTALLY alone; however, I'm also relatively speaking, a human 'EMPATH', so it STILL PISSES ME OFF TO see LIARS AND HYPOCRITES BULLY OTHERS, over their innate GOD GIVEN human nature.

YES, IT makes me so mad I COULD 'SPIT NAILS OUT OF A CROSS'. ;)

AND that's just a metaphor, please, PLEASE, don't take it literally. ;)


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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17 Jan 2015, 11:15 am

What I am saying is you must respect people's humanity first, before anything else. I notice this is a serious pandemic, especially in religious fundamentalism and governments that abuse their power. No moral center.

I listened to Sean Hannity in the car the other day. He talked about Duke university and how they wanted to have a Friday Adhan which is the call to prayer you hear over loud speakers in Islamic countries. The Muslims at Duke were hoping for a call to prayer every Friday at the school broadcast from the chapel for all to hear and they could have been planning it for some time, who knows, or maybe it is recent decision to show inclusiveness to a world that is becoming more divided. As you can imagine, there was much counter protesting the decision citing Muslims can be intolerant of other's chosen faith so why should a chapel let them chant an Adhan for the campus to hear? Enraged folks encouraged alumni to boycott the university. So, Hannity had a Muslim on his show who was an Imam, maybe, not for sure but he was part of the Islamic scene in Baltimore and was affiliated with a mosque there. He said he respects everyone's humanity first and foremost, doesn't matter if they are man, woman, gay, straight, adulterer, or if they are other religions and at his mosque, Christians are welcome and do come for their own prayer groups. So I thought after hearing him, the man has a strong moral center, meaning he won't justify evil by religion and I thought, wouldn't a problems around the world go away if everyone were like him?



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17 Jan 2015, 11:57 am

So, what I am saying is you can be very religious, a fanatic, in fact, and have no moral center even though people might be fooled into thinking you are very moral because you encase yourself in religious trappings and verses from holy books, but if you do not respect intrinsic human dna in other words, treat humans with the respect we all deserve, it cancels everything else out and this is what the man Hannity had on his show was basically saying about his mosque and what he encouraged others to embrace about people and their differences.



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17 Jan 2015, 12:11 pm

First off, stop watching Fox News. :D

So, the guy was saying that one who is immoral in behaviour is culpable even if s/he makes a pretext of being moral? That makes sense. If a trees crashes to the ground in an empty forest does it make a sound? I would say yes because some things are absolute regardless of their being perceived.



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17 Jan 2015, 12:18 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
So, what I am saying is you can be very religious, a fanatic, in fact, and have no moral center even though people might be fooled into thinking you are very moral because you encase yourself in religious trappings and verses from holy books, but if you do not respect intrinsic human dna in other words, treat humans with the respect we all deserve, it cancels everything else out and this is what the man Hannity had on his show was basically saying about his mosque and what he encouraged others to embrace about people and their differences.


And truly that's the golden rule in a nut shell, when appropriately cracked and released as such.

The tribal instinct of human nature, though, often intrinsically goes AGAINST the golden rule.

Without cognitive effort in TRUE EFFECT AND AFFECT, the golden RULE will not work, overall.

Love is a practice NOT A GUARANTEE.

So the practice OF Love as ART and Cognitive Science AS INTENT goes on OR NOT, AS there is no warrantee with love, as well. :)

OR art and science of human nature balanced.

Yeah, sometimes folks speak WORDS out of the hate of their mouth and love of their mouth in the same sentence OR STEPS IN THE SAME 'DANCE' as nature and PERCEIVED COGNITIVE intent do NOT ALWAYS MATCH.

TO GET IT BALANCED is the potential to get it matched as INTEGRITY OF FULLER FUNCTIONING HUMAN balance in Love as Art and Cognitive science as TRUE INTENT OF more fully balanced human being.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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17 Jan 2015, 12:45 pm

Aghogday,

Do you have to love someone to simply respect their humanity? :huh:

Androbot,

I only listen to Hannity in the car and I usually end up having to turn it off because I just can't take the hypocrisy. One minute Hannity is accusing the world of intolerance and lack of tolerance for freedom of expression, next minute he's throwing a fit because he claims the world is mocking the US and it's all Obama's fault. It's like, why does Hannity care, it's freedom of expression? I can't take the way he panders to his audience like that. I can see right through it.
Onto what I was saying, you can tell the moral ones by how they respond to "those who are different from themselves."
That's the general idea.
The Islamic guy was saying you cannot stone people for being gay or adulterous behavior. You respect the right of other to pray their way, etc. It goes against practically every doctrine in the three Abramic religions because they fail to hit this fundamental nail on the head with a hammer although it's the most important. They couldn't in the face off their enemies, they had to swagger and put on a show to puff themselves up like Siamese Fighting Fish.



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17 Jan 2015, 12:57 pm

That is what I see as the definition of love NOT the fictional short lived romance modern one..:)!


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17 Jan 2015, 1:10 pm

aghogday wrote:
That is what I see as the definition of love NOT the fictional short lived romance modern one..:)!

Let's look at St Paul. What did he mean by charity? Was he talking about what you are?

From wiki regarding charity and St Paul;

Quote:
St Paul's agapē was not primarily about good works and giving to the poor[dubious – discuss] (And though I feed the poor with all my goods, and though I give my body, that I be burned, and have not love [agapē], it profiteth me nothing – 1 Cor 13:3, Geneva translation, 1560), although in English the word "charity" has steadily acquired this as its primary meaning, wherein it was first used in Old French at least since the year 1200 A.D..



I don't like this definition. It doesn't really say what St Paul was talking about even though KJV of the NT uses the word charity.



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17 Jan 2015, 1:16 pm

Everybody should respect each other regardless, although it's sometimes hard to do, sometimes it even seems people are being condescending, patronising, or it feels like your being spoken down to. I do this myself. No one is perfect, I generally think that it's to do with not seeing the full picture and only being rigid in your own point of view.

One thing is for sure though.
NO ONE SHOULD BE UNDERESTIMATED. No matter how intelligent or unintelligent they may seem, as some people have put it, HOW DO YOU DEFINE INTELIGENCE?

I think people make the mistake of getting trapped in there ways.

I always thought if you had a power don't abuse other people with it, because using it for harm I actually consider unintelligent.

I don't think you can change somebody, it would be unethical to try to do so, you could offer your opinion, but people only change if they want to.



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17 Jan 2015, 1:21 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
aghogday wrote:
That is what I see as the definition of love NOT the fictional short lived romance modern one..:)!

Let's look at St Paul. What did he mean by charity? Was he talking about what you are?

From wiki regarding charity and St Paul;

Quote:
St Paul's agapē was not primarily about good works and giving to the poor[dubious – discuss] (And though I feed the poor with all my goods, and though I give my body, that I be burned, and have not love [agapē], it profiteth me nothing – 1 Cor 13:3, Geneva translation, 1560), although in English the word "charity" has steadily acquired this as its primary meaning, wherein it was first used in Old French at least since the year 1200 A.D..



I don't like this definition. It doesn't really say what St Paul was talking about even though KJV of the NT uses the word charity.


Nope.. Like I said what you were talking about in respecting the humanity in others who are different..AND most importantly DANCING that metaphor in human creative ways to uplift humanity as whole instead of downgrading it to hate per the polar opposite way of HATE in life.. As is NOW!..:)

Why do you think I respond to your posts the most of ALL here, as to me that is the MOST important part of human life and without FAIL you prove you are ANTI-hate in ANA's words...


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