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Kraichgauer
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28 Jan 2015, 1:39 pm

sophisticated wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
^ I find this really offensive and at the same time really asinine. I have a great deal of evidence that my mother exists, in fact anyone who has ever lived has a great deal of evidence for the existence of their mother or at the the very least the existence of the originator of their egg.


What about your great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grand mother .... Did she walk the earth ?

You will say yes, but scientifically speaking you have no idea.

I can't prove the existence of God using science. But using logic and reasoning I can get myself to believe in God.


Well, as I walk the earth, I'm therefore pretty certain that my several times removed great grandmother did so as well.


Well, as I exist, therefore God exists.

It would be absurd to deny the existence of God, no ?


That's a matter for faith, not logic.


No it's not. I'm using the exact same logic as you.


How? I'm just saying I wouldn't exist if my remote ancestor hadn't.


And where did your remote ancestor come from ? Evolved from some kind of bacteria ? Where did bacteria come from ? Where did the Universe come from ? Random big bang ? I'm sorry but explosions cause chaos and destruction, not dinosaurs.


Who says I don't believe in God? Because I most certainly do. But the fact remains, I know about the Big Bang as a fact of science, but I know God through faith.


M'kay , you believe in God. That's good.

But you shouldn't be afraid to say that you know God exists. You don't say you know your distant ancestor through faith do you ?


But there is a definite difference between believing something, and knowing it. I believe in God, despite the fact that logic can't prove his existence, whereas I know my remote ancestor had existed because logically I wouldn't otherwise exist. I don't know which religious tradition you belong to, but as a Lutheran, I was taught early on that the realms of faith and logic are best not to be mixed.


And logically you wouldnt exist without a primum movens.

Think about it.


If you want to believe you can encapsulate God in logic, go ahead, but I consider that a matter of faith.


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29 Jan 2015, 10:41 am

sophisticated wrote:
And logically you wouldnt exist without a primum movens.

Think about it.

What caused the first cause?

Would it not make more sense for there to be no Prime Mover, and rather an infinite regression of causes?

But let's say you're right and there was a first cause. There's no reason to believe it was a deity. Indeed, the evidence we currently have indicates that it wasn't.



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29 Jan 2015, 11:12 am

sophisticated wrote:
...And where did your remote ancestor come from ? Evolved from some kind of bacteria ?...


Yes. Exactly that. That is where all life came from. It really isn't that complicated; my children understand it.

It doesn't matter if you believe in Evolution or not. It just matters if you understand why it is true or not.


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29 Jan 2015, 11:20 am

The spark of life came from God. He created the sky, the waters, the sea and water creatures (including reptiles and amphibians), the birds, the land, the mammals, and humans. Where else is there life? People argue that the spark of life came about because earth is a closed system but energy doesn't create life on it's own. You can't put sunlight on a dead plant and make it come alive or heat a rock and make it breathe. Where did the spark of life come from? It came from God.



badgerface
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29 Jan 2015, 11:22 am

prove it


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BlueYellowBrownGreen
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29 Jan 2015, 11:27 am

Don't be so confrontational little badger. I can't even get defensive because the pic looks so cute, cute little badger with an attitude. Hush little badger, don't say a word, God is in charge and it's for your own good! I am going to get a badger stuffed toy now.

Look around; there is your proof. This beautiful world. There is absolutely no proof that the spark of life just happened-zap!-either. It is guess work on the part of science is it not? Yes, it is. And I believe in God because I have faith that doesn't need blueprint proof (the proof science doesn't have either by the way). I look at the world and from my personal experience, yes, God exists and he created the world.

And anyway, this discussion is for people who believe in God and I clearly stated that I didn't want it to be a place to debate the existence of God. If you read the original post, you will see that, so please be respectful.



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29 Jan 2015, 11:41 am

BlueYellowBrownGreen wrote:
Don't be so confrontational little badger. I can't even get defensive because the pic looks so cute, cute little badger with an attitude. Hush little badger, don't say a word, God is in charge and it's for your own good! I am going to get a badger stuffed toy now.

Look around; there is your proof. This beautiful world. There is absolutely no proof that the spark of life just happened-zap!-either. It is guess work on the part of science is it not? Yes, it is. And I believe in God because I have faith that doesn't need blueprint proof (the proof science doesn't have either by the way). I look at the world and from my personal experience, yes, God exists and he created the world.

And anyway, this discussion is for people who believe in God and I clearly stated that I didn't want it to be a place to debate the existence of God. If you read the original post, you will see that, so please be respectful.


I did see and take note of the statement at the start of the post, and have withheld chiming in until now. But a momentary lapse in my filter triggered my response I do sincerely apologise.

I do strongly disagree with you but I will respectfully not "bite" or respond to anything you've said regarding proof, belief or faith :) Your badger comments serve well to nullify any animosity :)


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29 Jan 2015, 11:44 am

The_Walrus wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
And logically you wouldnt exist without a primum movens.

Think about it.

What caused the first cause?

Would it not make more sense for there to be no Prime Mover, and rather an infinite regression of causes?

But let's say you're right and there was a first cause. There's no reason to believe it was a deity. Indeed, the evidence we currently have indicates that it wasn't.


GOD made GOD, per Mother Nature True.

Even Stephen HawkinG agrees SHE DIDN'T NEED help from anyone else.

In other words, WHO made WHO.

Ever since I AM three years old before I can speak, I cannot understand why this simple TRUTH OF EXISTENCE IS SO FRIGGING HARD TO FATHOM.

IT'S SIMPLE.

GOD MADE GOD.

AND WHO MADE WHO.

EVEN AC DC KNOWS THAT.



AND THAT'S THE TRUTH.

:P

AKA

This:



And no, this is not just SATIRE, IT IS METAPHORICAL AND LITERAL TRUTH.

YEAH, they can work together, true, for someone WHO CAN effectively orchestrate them together, with integrated mind AND BODY BALANCE.


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30 Jan 2015, 5:55 am

I'm by no means an expert on ontology, but for me it all boils down to the ultimate existential 'this or that' in whether or not one generally believes in a higher power. Humans have no worldly perception of what lies beyond our own existence...religion, philosophy, spiritualism, atheism, et al. are attempts to make something conceptually tangible out of something incomprehensible. I have that sort of hippy-drippy "all religions are rivers leading to the same ocean" attitude, so I feel it's all a matter of finding a belief system which benefits yourself (and hopefully benefits others, IMHO).

I've never had any problem believing in the concept of a deity or deities...I mean, with the sheer brain-melting eternal vastness of the universe, nobody can speak conclusively about what does or doesn't lie beyond our galaxy. I looked into varying philosophies before unexpectedly turning my sights towards religion, and then looked into comparative religion before settling firmly within Protestant Christianity (Episcopal, to be precise). I can attempt to rationalize my belief in God in general with the various cosmological theories set by the likes of Thomas Aquinas, but admittedly I can't rationalize my choice of Christianity in any way other than pure faith and spiritual/emotional contentedness. If I didn't feel such an intrinsic bond with my denominational doctrine and practices, I'm sure I'd lean more towards outright deism.



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30 Jan 2015, 11:56 am

I believe. For a cogent explanation of why, read Lee Strobel, The Case for Faith. This says it much better than I can. God "makes all things work together for our good.". I must believe this, even when I can't see the reason for things.



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30 Jan 2015, 11:57 am

ImpulsIve wrote:
I believe. For a cogent explanation of why, read Lee Strobel, The Case for Faith. This says it much better than I can. God "makes all things work together for our good.". I must believe this, even when I can't see the reason for things.


I agree. :)


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30 Jan 2015, 11:58 am

Skibz888 wrote:
I'm by no means an expert on ontology, but for me it all boils down to the ultimate existential 'this or that' in whether or not one generally believes in a higher power. Humans have no worldly perception of what lies beyond our own existence...religion, philosophy, spiritualism, atheism, et al. are attempts to make something conceptually tangible out of something incomprehensible. I have that sort of hippy-drippy "all religions are rivers leading to the same ocean" attitude, so I feel it's all a matter of finding a belief system which benefits yourself (and hopefully benefits others, IMHO).

I've never had any problem believing in the concept of a deity or deities...I mean, with the sheer brain-melting eternal vastness of the universe, nobody can speak conclusively about what does or doesn't lie beyond our galaxy. I looked into varying philosophies before unexpectedly turning my sights towards religion, and then looked into comparative religion before settling firmly within Protestant Christianity (Episcopal, to be precise). I can attempt to rationalize my belief in God in general with the various cosmological theories set by the likes of Thomas Aquinas, but admittedly I can't rationalize my choice of Christianity in any way other than pure faith and spiritual/emotional contentedness. If I didn't feel such an intrinsic bond with my denominational doctrine and practices, I'm sure I'd lean more towards outright deism.


I see truth in what you are speaking of here. :)


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30 Jan 2015, 12:18 pm

I was raised Christian and I still continue to be, somewhat, to this day. I call myself a Christian, though I don't necessarily think about God all the time or do all the things a Christian is "supposed" to do. I still have a lot of questions and doubts about things like heaven and hell, whether God's love is really unconditional, etc. You could say I haven't got my beliefs sorted out yet.

As to why I believe, that's hard for me to answer. I'll have to be honest and say that fear of going to hell plays a part in it. Having something to believe in just provides me with a sense that I am loved and that everything will be OK.
Also, the idea that the universe just formed from nothing, without any intelligent mind to create it, just doesn't make sense to me.

I am accepting of other people's religions and ways to experience God, though. I think we can all find meaning in our life in our own way. For me that might be Christianity, for you that might be another religion or philosophy. I don't believe in condemning people on the basis of religion.



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30 Jan 2015, 7:28 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
^ I find this really offensive and at the same time really asinine. I have a great deal of evidence that my mother exists, in fact anyone who has ever lived has a great deal of evidence for the existence of their mother or at the the very least the existence of the originator of their egg.


What about your great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grand mother .... Did she walk the earth ?

You will say yes, but scientifically speaking you have no idea.

I can't prove the existence of God using science. But using logic and reasoning I can get myself to believe in God.


Well, as I walk the earth, I'm therefore pretty certain that my several times removed great grandmother did so as well.


Well, as I exist, therefore God exists.

It would be absurd to deny the existence of God, no ?


That's a matter for faith, not logic.


No it's not. I'm using the exact same logic as you.


How? I'm just saying I wouldn't exist if my remote ancestor hadn't.


And where did your remote ancestor come from ? Evolved from some kind of bacteria ? Where did bacteria come from ? Where did the Universe come from ? Random big bang ? I'm sorry but explosions cause chaos and destruction, not dinosaurs.


Who says I don't believe in God? Because I most certainly do. But the fact remains, I know about the Big Bang as a fact of science, but I know God through faith.


M'kay , you believe in God. That's good.

But you shouldn't be afraid to say that you know God exists. You don't say you know your distant ancestor through faith do you ?


But there is a definite difference between believing something, and knowing it. I believe in God, despite the fact that logic can't prove his existence, whereas I know my remote ancestor had existed because logically I wouldn't otherwise exist. I don't know which religious tradition you belong to, but as a Lutheran, I was taught early on that the realms of faith and logic are best not to be mixed.


And logically you wouldnt exist without a primum movens.

Think about it.


If you want to believe you can encapsulate God in logic, go ahead, but I consider that a matter of faith.


BIll once again I take my hat off to you. Unfortunately some people will never understand the philosophy of "follow the evidence where ever it leads' St Thomas Aquinas (he of prime mover fame) certainly did, I cant find the quote but he spoke of the need to change religious doctrine is natural philosophy showed it to be wrong.


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30 Jan 2015, 9:11 pm

^^^
Why thank you, Dent!


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30 Jan 2015, 9:33 pm

Skibz888 wrote:
I'm by no means an expert on ontology, but for me it all boils down to the ultimate existential 'this or that' in whether or not one generally believes in a higher power. Humans have no worldly perception of what lies beyond our own existence...religion, philosophy, spiritualism, atheism, et al. are attempts to make something conceptually tangible out of something incomprehensible. I have that sort of hippy-drippy "all religions are rivers leading to the same ocean" attitude, so I feel it's all a matter of finding a belief system which benefits yourself (and hopefully benefits others, IMHO).

I've never had any problem believing in the concept of a deity or deities...I mean, with the sheer brain-melting eternal vastness of the universe, nobody can speak conclusively about what does or doesn't lie beyond our galaxy. I looked into varying philosophies before unexpectedly turning my sights towards religion, and then looked into comparative religion before settling firmly within Protestant Christianity (Episcopal, to be precise). I can attempt to rationalize my belief in God in general with the various cosmological theories set by the likes of Thomas Aquinas, but admittedly I can't rationalize my choice of Christianity in any way other than pure faith and spiritual/emotional contentedness. If I didn't feel such an intrinsic bond with my denominational doctrine and practices, I'm sure I'd lean more towards outright deism.

Excellent post.

I went somewhat the same way, though from different origins - kind'a. But there was a big difference.

I came to the conclusion that all attempts to describe whatever possible deity or deities might exist, are all man made, regardless of their complexity. The different versions of such deities are so limited, which shows an unbreakable influence from a) this earthly environment and b) our anthropomorphic drive. We cannot "see" beyond our mortal experience and so we map all beliefs to that. Even fictional deities fail to break away from that.

I arrived at the point that any human understanding of possible deities is as limited as an ant's understanding of the sun. In effect, and due to our unbreakable propensity to anthropomorphize, the gap between our invention of gods and any possible reality mean I have to be functionally atheist. That means I allow for the possibility of deities, but none any that any religion describes, because all such descriptions are totally human.


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