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Humanaut
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04 Feb 2015, 2:57 pm

BobbyCrazykite wrote:
As a person from a post-Soviet country, Lithuania, who had for ages suffered Russian occupation, I firmly support the starter of this thread, who said it all right- I guess, honest, conscious Russian people, just like German intellectuals in Nazi Germany before the WWII, should/or will be eventually forced to leave the country if they are willing to stay true to their values. Russia, make no doubt, right now is just like Germany in the 1930's, exactly the same rhetoric, the same tactic.

Kasparov makes the same connection (he has left Russia). Here, from a recent interview:



staremaster
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04 Feb 2015, 8:38 pm

AspE
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04 Feb 2015, 10:57 pm

Russia is becoming a fascist state, and the reason many Russians support it is due to the media, which is controlled by the political/ industrial elite. It's like Fox News but way worse.



Humanaut
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04 Feb 2015, 11:16 pm

The Pentagon thinks Putin has Asperger's.



staremaster
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11 Feb 2015, 6:49 pm

US weapons for Ukraine?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... 3720150211

Not sure I agree with this. It seems like they have plenty of weapons already.



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12 Feb 2015, 2:28 am

staremaster wrote:
US weapons for Ukraine?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... 3720150211

Not sure I agree with this. It seems like they have plenty of weapons already.


They have some left, but they keep losing them. Right now they just lost 7-9,000 troops, all of their weapons, in the caldron.

In the south the Rights Sector was baited out of Maripol, in tanks, lead into the woods till they ran out of fuel.

The Rights Sector, National Guard, and other thuggery are more the drive-by shooting and street gang type of fighting. Only from a safe distance will they use artillery on schools, hospitals, bus stops.

The front lines are filled with guys who were in high school last year. Safely behind them are National Guard who will shoot them if they pull back

Reports from Kiev say three of their troops suffered minor wounds while they killed 10,000 terrorists and Russian troops last week. Reports from several outside sources say Kiev is losing thousands a week, and since the schools and kindergartens are closed, the killing of terrorists is way down.

Russian troops have atomic self destruct devices, that is why none have been captured dead or alive.

The US gave arms to Saddam, Poison Gas, which he used on Iran, and a few Kurds. We know he had banned weapons of mass destruction, we still have the receipts! Now ISIS has them, because after capture of the warehouse where we delivered them, we left them there, because old nerve gas is unstable. It would have been an unprofitable expense. Like what we got stuck with in Syria, a billion dollar gift, as Assad gave all his obsolete chemical weapons to America, who had to dispose of them.

Ukraine is very badly run, and has a lot of Soviet Era Atomic Reactors.

The people in the east say they are Ukraine, Russia says they are, so does Kiev. The US sending in trainers and weapons is taking sides in a Civil War. There are no Communists involved, they are all the same Religion. America is going to war against Federalists! The main reason for war, They Voted!

The eastern Ukraines are on home ground, the people shelling their cities are from the other side of the country.
The eastern Ukraines never attacked anyone outside their cities. Half of their Oblasts have been overrun with Rights Sector, Blackwater, National Guard, and other Private Armies. That and the full force of State arms have been thrown at them, and they are gaining ground.

When the current line crumbles, there is nothing between the Federalists and Kiev.

Federalist views run strong all over, being able to elect your own Mayor, Governor, Delegates to the National Government, and Vote for National Offices.

Imagine a Country with Oblast Rights, where the people elect local leaders, make local law, then all the Oblasts elect a National Federalist Government, with limited rights. Government by the consent of the governed.

According to Washington, the Media, and The Federal Reserve System, Putin is an aspie for thinking anything so crazy stands a chance of working in the real world. Their reply is putting missiles all along the Russian border. From a hundred kilometers away they can target terrorist kindergartens, for Freeedom! It is better they are dead than Federalist.

America fought a war against Federalism in 1861, and Oblast Rights. They are not going to let that evil rise again anywhere on earth.

Besides that our young people say there are not enough meaningful jobs. They are also behind in their Student Loans. A lot of world problems can be solved by drafting those in default. It would be a great education to destroy those who think they can form their own government, run it themselves, for their own goals.



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12 Feb 2015, 1:17 pm

Inventor wrote:
staremaster wrote:
US weapons for Ukraine?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... 3720150211

Not sure I agree with this. It seems like they have plenty of weapons already.


They have some left, but they keep losing them. Right now they just lost 7-9,000 troops, all of their weapons, in the caldron.

In the south the Rights Sector was baited out of Maripol, in tanks, lead into the woods till they ran out of fuel.

The Rights Sector, National Guard, and other thuggery are more the drive-by shooting and street gang type of fighting. Only from a safe distance will they use artillery on schools, hospitals, bus stops.


Okay, maybe Ukraine could use some weapons. But if they get the stuff they need ( tanks and anti-tank), what is to stop Russia from similarly upping the ante at much less expense?



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12 Feb 2015, 6:12 pm

staremaster wrote:
Inventor wrote:
staremaster wrote:
US weapons for Ukraine?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... 3720150211

Not sure I agree with this. It seems like they have plenty of weapons already.


They have some left, but they keep losing them. Right now they just lost 7-9,000 troops, all of their weapons, in the caldron.

In the south the Rights Sector was baited out of Maripol, in tanks, lead into the woods till they ran out of fuel.

The Rights Sector, National Guard, and other thuggery are more the drive-by shooting and street gang type of fighting. Only from a safe distance will they use artillery on schools, hospitals, bus stops.


Okay, maybe Ukraine could use some weapons. But if they get the stuff they need ( tanks and anti-tank), what is to stop Russia from similarly upping the ante at much less expense?


I think this is the same thing as locks: locks don't stop burglars, but it makes it more difficult for them so they may consider it not worth the effort. This war in Ukraine is the same, if the Russians wanted to win at all costs they could have overrun all of Ukraine easily, they outmatch them so much. By boosting the Ukrainian military the Russians may just consider it not worth it to escalate the conflict, and they may sooner consider a diplomatic solution. Maybe they counted on the EU/US not doing anything.
Anyway, they seem to have come up with a ceasefire today, now they just need to find a way out of this conflict without while allowing everyone to save face (there isn't, but maybe they can spin it that way).



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12 Feb 2015, 7:05 pm

staremaster wrote:
Inventor wrote:
staremaster wrote:
US weapons for Ukraine?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... 3720150211

Not sure I agree with this. It seems like they have plenty of weapons already.


They have some left, but they keep losing them. Right now they just lost 7-9,000 troops, all of their weapons, in the caldron.

In the south the Rights Sector was baited out of Maripol, in tanks, lead into the woods till they ran out of fuel.

The Rights Sector, National Guard, and other thuggery are more the drive-by shooting and street gang type of fighting. Only from a safe distance will they use artillery on schools, hospitals, bus stops.


Okay, maybe Ukraine could use some weapons. But if they get the stuff they need ( tanks and anti-tank), what is to stop Russia from similarly upping the ante at much less expense?


Why would they need weapons since peace has been declared?

This peace is based on a Federalist Constitution this year. It cannot just be for the east, all Oblasts are equal, so it also applies to Odessa.

Local Mayors, Judges, Police Chief, and Oblast Governors, other officials are currently all appointed from Kiev.

The only elections are national, and only approved people can run for office. Since the last "Election". The Communists, the Regions Party of the last President, have been banned from politics.

Free elections, the South and East have the majority vote.

First they will have a Majority in the Rada, then will elect the next President. The war will be over.

Several times the US has cancelled elections in other countries when the wrong people were going to win.

The same deal, a national election, Ho Chi Min was a national hero, fought the French, The Japanese, the French again, and was set to be elected in a landslide. The US sent in troops and called off the election, 68,000 American dead later they left.

All of the government in Kiev knows they will not last, the money is gone, they have a $3,000,000,000 Russian Loan coming due, owe more for gas, so a Billion in arms sounds good, it can be sold on the black market, ISIS is buying.

Arms are useless, the Peace Agreement calls for pulling back heavy weapons, beyond their range. With no one on the front line having more than small arms. It also calls for removing all outside troops from the east, and allows the east to have a local militia. That means Kiev leaving the eastern Oblasts.

This will be followed by local elections, and the National Constitution changed to reflect a Federal System.

It is the same as the last Peace Agreement. Kiev did not pull back their weapons last time, as leaving them at the airport made it easy to shell the city.

This time, any heavy weapons in the Demilitarized Zone, will be fair game. Kiev's troops with only small arms will not hold the line. Nothing will stop eastern troops with small arms from advancing.

The coup imposed government is already at war with the Rights Sector in Kiev.

They lost the war, the peace, the war again, and this peace is the end.



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12 Feb 2015, 9:39 pm

Inventor wrote:
staremaster wrote:
Inventor wrote:
staremaster wrote:
US weapons for Ukraine?
<a class="vglnk" href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/11/us-ukraine-crisis-arms-idUSKBN0LF23720150211" rel="nofollow"><span>http</span><span>://</span><span>www</span><span>.</span><span>reuters</span><span>.</span><span>com</span><span>/</span><span>article</span><span>/</span><span>2015</span><span>/</span><span>02</span><span>/</span><span>11</span><span>/</span><span>us</span><span>-</span><span>ukraine</span><span>-</span><span>crisis</span><span>-</span><span>arms</span><span>-</span><span>idUSKBN0LF23720150211</span></a>

Not sure I agree with this. It seems like they have plenty of weapons already.


They have some left, but they keep losing them. Right now they just lost 7-9,000 troops, all of their weapons, in the caldron.

In the south the Rights Sector was baited out of Maripol, in tanks, lead into the woods till they ran out of fuel.

The Rights Sector, National Guard, and other thuggery are more the drive-by shooting and street gang type of fighting. Only from a safe distance will they use artillery on schools, hospitals, bus stops.


Okay, maybe Ukraine could use some weapons. But if they get the stuff they need ( tanks and anti-tank), what is to stop Russia from similarly upping the ante at much less expense?


Why would they need weapons since peace has been declared?

Arms are useless, the Peace Agreement calls for pulling back heavy weapons, beyond their range. With no one on the front line having more than small arms. It also calls for removing all outside troops from the east, and allows the east to have a local militia. That means Kiev leaving the eastern Oblasts.


It is the same as the last Peace Agreement. Kiev did not pull back their weapons last time, as leaving them at the airport made it easy to shell the city.

This time, any heavy weapons in the Demilitarized Zone, will be fair game. Kiev's troops with only small arms will not hold the line. Nothing will stop eastern troops with small arms from advancing.


I think Ukraine can stop the rebels from advancing, but the whole reason they are fighting in the first place is to reclaim the territory under separatist control. And I don't see them being able to do this. If they get more equipment, the rebels will also get more equipment. And they might as well forget about Crimea...



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13 Feb 2015, 3:01 am

Inventor wrote:
Why would they need weapons since peace has been declared?

Anything can be declared, but as history has shown, words are merely words. I don't believe for a second that we've seen the end of this conflict. This is a perfect opportunity to bring in some heavy equipment. They're gonna need it, most likely.



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13 Feb 2015, 8:53 am

Kiev has agreed to withdraw, and to a Federalist Constitution. France, Germany, Russia were parties to this agreement. Withdraw and the east has no one to fight.

Europe tried to get Russia to police the demilitarized zone. Russia refused, so Europe has to.

The East has had one demand, local rule in a Federation. It is something that everyone in France, Germany, Russia, have. They were attacked, called terrorists, had military weapons used to kill over 5,000 for holding a democratic election.

This is the stronghold of The Party of Regions, they elected the last president, and were then barred from the coup held elections. They are 40% of the economy of Ukraine. They also have major trade with Russia.

The south and east have the majority vote, the best economy, twice the per capita income, an industrial technology, Russian Defense Industries, and they just beat the National Government in two wars.

Kiev is broke, their money near worthless, live by begging and stealing, and cannot find enough food in some of the richest farmland on earth. They have raised the price of gas, cut pensions, and the economy is in free fall.

Giving them guns will not help. Giving them IMF Loans will not help.

IMF loans went to paying the Russians for gas, $5.3 Billion, and now $3 Billion in Russian loans are due. Ukraine has no way to pay back these loans. More money went to fund a civil war they lost. Russia is still their main supply of gas and coal.

The gold reserves have vanished. Some $8 Billion is gone without a trace under the coup government.

Russia, or Novarussia could overthrow Kiev. No one wants to because they would inherit their debts.

First a Federal System, then Novarussia quits, and western Ukraine can have what they made.

We will have a Yugoslav solution.



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13 Feb 2015, 9:22 am

Inventor wrote:
Giving them guns will not help.

It depends on the context. You are referring to economic conditions, while guns are used in military contexts. The situation is far from resolved, and a peace declaration does not in any way alter the need for military equipment. Quite the contrary.



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13 Feb 2015, 5:01 pm

In military context guns will not help. Ukraine had the superior weapons and troop numbers, they lost.
60% of their weapons were captured by the east last time, and more this time.

Ukraine had the only aircraft, now the east is a no fly zone.

Ground forces keep getting cut off.

Ukraine Army declared war on civilians, and lost.

All they have done is randomly shell cities from a distance, as they can no longer randomly bomb them.

Schools, hospitals, apartment blocks, people at a bus stop, are not targets, they are war crimes.

Killing civilians for political or religious reasons is called Terrorism.

Millions have fled into Russia because their own government was killing them.

Many more have fled western Ukraine to avoid being drafted.

Politics is now five years in jail for denying Russian Aggression. The same for asking for evidence of a Russian Invasion.

Drafting all men between eighteen and sixty to go fight in the east, declaring Martial Law, does not have the support of anyone.

What will happen next does not need more guns, it is time for the regular Army to stage a coup, draft a new Constitution, and hold elections where all groups can vote.

Having claimed that Russian speakers are invading terrorists, killing them, excluding them from government, has made it impossible to keep one country.

Europe has refused to arm Ukraine, NATO has refused to arm Ukraine. Poland did offer to sell some military surplus for cash. The coup imposed government does not have support inside or outside of the country.



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14 Feb 2015, 1:38 am

Where do you get your information from? PutinTV?



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15 Feb 2015, 1:36 am