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OliveOilMom
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28 Jan 2015, 3:34 am

Therese04 wrote:
nerdygirl wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
I was bullied horribly and constantly all through school. I've been pantsed, been teased because I liked certain boys who would never have liked me, had a lot of things done like that. It was bullying and horrible. It was embarrassing. I consider it bullying and not sexual harrassment. Of course nowdays it's sexual harrassment to tell a slightly off color joke at work, so I wouldn't be surprised what all is called that now.

As for other girls, my best friend in school was developed way before anybody else and guys were always trying to grab her and snap her bra etc. She would hit them when they did it so she handled herself pretty well. Teachers would make them stop if they saw it, but she didn't run tell on them she handled her business. I would call that kid stuff as well and it didn't upset her and make her cry or traumatize her or anything, it just made her mad and she made sure they knew it. Thats just kids. No, it's not OK and kids should be taught not to do that and they are taught to do that, but kids are still kids and push limits and some are basically assholes and have to learn not to be. I don't think we should hold them to the same standards as adults who completely understand standards of behavior. We can't expect them to act like little well behaved adults at all time. I'm not saying tolerate things we shoulldn't but lets not fly off the handle about things and decide that middle school kids are guilty of sexual harrassment when it's simply them being bad because they are still kids. High school kids doing it is a different story, but saying that it's sexual harrassment when a middle school kid says "Now thats what a woman should look like" is going pretty far overboard, in my opinion.


I'm glad your friend was able to hit the boys. For various reasons, I couldn't hit the boy who snapped my bra.

As far as feeling traumatized by my experiences, I guess that means there was/is something wrong with me...


I have to agree with Nerdygirl. I am an educator and all of what you described is absolutely 100% sexual harassment right down to someone whistling at you while you are walking down the street. A boy snapping a girl's bra is morally degrading and should not be tolerated at any time or at any level. I grew up with 7 brothers, and never once did they ever do something like that to me. My parents would never tolerate it
under any circumstances whatsoever.

I understand your friend was able to stick up for herself, but that is precisely the reason why having AS can be so debilitating, and dangerous at times. Those with AS have difficulty with judgement especially in social situations. This is due to the underdevelopment of the cerebellum which is responsible for social judgement.

They also lack coordination and have poor gross motor skills, which is also controlled by the cerebellum.

Henceforth? If they were to be in a compromising situation and recognized it as such they would have difficulty getting out of it.

They would not be able to think fast enough to knee someone in the balls, and if they did they would lack the coordination to so quickly enough for it to be effective. They would panic and become completely overwhelmed, and freeze up.

Their brain is wired differently. It's not as simple as easy as just making a decision to stick up for oneself. By the time they even realize they are being harassed, the damage has already been done.

It's not a question of having "courage." Aspies are some of the most courageous people I know so if that we the case we wouldn't even be having this conversation. They so not know what to so because this is an impairment in the brain they have little or ok control over.

This is why those with AS are most prone to bullying, and the reason why social skills need to be explicitly taught in schools.

It's the kids around those who are being bullied that need to speak up. The instances of bullying that have been effectively stopped are not the ones where the victim has taken a stand, but when those in the background took a stand rather than just standing around and watching and allowing it to happen.

One book that might be helpful in understanding AS at a deeper level is called, Pretending to be Normal. She talks about a situation she was in where a gentleman came into her college classroom where she taught as a professor and assaulted her, by the time she realized she was in danger it was too late. The only thing that saved her was one of her students who was smart enough to intervene. Had it not been for him, she would have been raped.

People with AS do not have that trigger that most people have in their brains that signifies danger in certain situations. This is why it is so important for those of us who work with and support those with AS to educate ourselves.

Do not question your judgement Nerdygirl. You are spot on!! !


So it's not possible for us to learn judgement and how to react and to react properly and to learn how to stand up for ourselves and actually do it appropriately? I had no idea. I wonder why I've been able to do it then.

I have AS and went through some things you would call sexual harassment and pretty severe bullying when I was a kid and I learned how to stand up for myself when I was about 13 or 14 and over the years I got better at it. I also had to learn what was and wasn't appropriate for others to do and learn to better my judgement and I've done so. My judgement is just as good as any NT and I can and will stand up for myself appropriately as good as any NT.

So I guess my "impaired" brain managed to find it's "trigger" and work right.

By the way, I was professionally diagnosed about a decade ago. I'm 50 now. I spent most of my life not knowing what was wrong with me, but that something wasn't right. I learned to work around it and deal with it. I'm aware that my AS is mild and that many people have a much harder time doing what I did and that for some, it's not possible. However, don't ever lump us all into a category of "people who can't do this" and don't make the assumption that a particular person with AS can't do a certain thing without meeting them.

I'm aware you are an educator, but I'm not sure what field you specialize in, so I can only speak as a person with AS. I have been in more compromising situations than you can imagine, and many of those weren't caused by my judgement, some of them were caused by the job I had at the time, others by chance, and others simply because of poor decisions that I was completely aware were poor, or ones that I wasn't aware were poor but I was also very young. I've usually been able to get myself out of those situations, and at times diffuse the situation for everyone involved in it, despite my "impaired" brain.

I'm sure there is some information out there for you on the fact that many people with AS aren't as helpless in the face of conflict and decision making as you seem to think. I do encourage you to seek out reputable sources for this information. If your company requires continuing education, maybe you can find something about this that can qualify for CEU's.


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0_equals_true
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28 Jan 2015, 3:49 am

I think there is a problem where there are no shades of grey when a child is 10-14.

When a child can be instantly criminalised, for a single incident, that can be an issue.

I do think think that snapping a bra can be sexual but everything has to be put into the proper perspective. Are they snapping the bra as in causing the elastic to hit the the skin, or are the causing it to undo?

Persistent obsession over snapping bra, invading someone’s personal space, is obvious a problem, not matter what you call it.

I think if you are going to have rule there can't have double standard, and the response has to be age appropriate. Having said that if a child is doing sexually inappropriate things at a young age there is obviously a problem with that child.



OliveOilMom
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28 Jan 2015, 5:50 am

0_equals_true wrote:
I think there is a problem where there are no shades of grey when a child is 10-14.

When a child can be instantly criminalised, for a single incident, that can be an issue.

I do think think that snapping a bra can be sexual but everything has to be put into the proper perspective. Are they snapping the bra as in causing the elastic to hit the the skin, or are the causing it to undo?

Persistent obsession over snapping bra, invading someone’s personal space, is obvious a problem, not matter what you call it.

I think if you are going to have rule there can't have double standard, and the response has to be age appropriate. Having said that if a child is doing sexually inappropriate things at a young age there is obviously a problem with that child.


Back in 5th and 6th grade guys would snap girls bras because they knew it bothered us. Thats about the age we started wearing bras. Instead of pulling our hair or throwing spitballs at us, we now wore a new piece of clothing that they could use to annoy us. Maybe in high school it might be done for a sexual harassment type reason, but in 5th and 6th grade like that it's just done to annoy, I'd say about 90% of the time. It just causes it to hit the skin and sometimes it undoes it, but no boys at that age actually know how to make it come undone that fast from just snapping it, unless they are particularly annoying little shits and have done it enough to get good at it or have spent enough time with their mothers or sisters bra strapped around the back of a kitchen chair and practiced on it.

There are going to be some people who have no shades of grey on anything that might remotely be considered sexual harassment or anything to do with perceived oppression, harassment, or discrimination of anyone of the female sex no matter how far you have to stretch an idea to get it to where it becomes that. If that bunch get their way then a guy simply whistling at a girl walking down the street could be locked up or fined for it, and of course fired from his job if he's working construction at the time.


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nerdygirl
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28 Jan 2015, 6:37 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
I think there is a problem where there are no shades of grey when a child is 10-14.

When a child can be instantly criminalised, for a single incident, that can be an issue.

I do think think that snapping a bra can be sexual but everything has to be put into the proper perspective. Are they snapping the bra as in causing the elastic to hit the the skin, or are the causing it to undo?

Persistent obsession over snapping bra, invading someone’s personal space, is obvious a problem, not matter what you call it.

I think if you are going to have rule there can't have double standard, and the response has to be age appropriate. Having said that if a child is doing sexually inappropriate things at a young age there is obviously a problem with that child.


Back in 5th and 6th grade guys would snap girls bras because they knew it bothered us. Thats about the age we started wearing bras. Instead of pulling our hair or throwing spitballs at us, we now wore a new piece of clothing that they could use to annoy us. Maybe in high school it might be done for a sexual harassment type reason, but in 5th and 6th grade like that it's just done to annoy, I'd say about 90% of the time. It just causes it to hit the skin and sometimes it undoes it, but no boys at that age actually know how to make it come undone that fast from just snapping it, unless they are particularly annoying little shits and have done it enough to get good at it or have spent enough time with their mothers or sisters bra strapped around the back of a kitchen chair and practiced on it.

There are going to be some people who have no shades of grey on anything that might remotely be considered sexual harassment or anything to do with perceived oppression, harassment, or discrimination of anyone of the female sex no matter how far you have to stretch an idea to get it to where it becomes that. If that bunch get their way then a guy simply whistling at a girl walking down the street could be locked up or fined for it, and of course fired from his job if he's working construction at the time.


It used to be against the law for men to swear in front of women. Many states still have these blue laws that, obviously, are no longer enforced. The idea is that women were to be highly respected and even swearing in front of them was considered to be an insult to their nature.

Things sure have changed!

I am really not a feminist, but neither am I a total traditionalist. I just think all people should be treated with respect. All of the activities we are talking about are forms of disrespect.

When girls start wearing bras, boys should be old enough to know to leave them alone. It's not "just another piece of clothing to torment us with." Boys know girls are wearing bras because they have developed breasts. Boys never tormented me with clothing before I wore a bra. And the only male ever to pull on my pigtails was a man who later raped and killed a teen girl and buried her in his basement. There is something different about harassing a girl in ways that only a girl can be harassed. I wonder about those boys who pick on girls for being girls. How often do they grow up to commit sexual crimes (reported or not)? It reminds me of how psychopaths are know to harm animals and insects as children.

When a woman is walking down the street and gets whistled at, what is that communicating? I sure wasn't looking for the attention. Just walking. To not have any way to tell them off (like when they are in the car driving away), according to a previous argument you made, is implicitly saying it's OK for us to be treated this way.

I suppose that I could learn how to give a guy a look or gesture that expresses my extreme annoyance. The problems with that are that in some cases it's not possible, it's not strong enough of a deterrent to keep it from happening again, it could escalate the problem in certain situations, and I don't usually react quickly enough.

If a white man hurled a racial insult at a black man, we'd have a fit over that! Would you say that the white man is not racially harassing the black man?

The whole whistling thing happened first when I was 13. I know the guys in the cars didn't know I was just 13. Walking down the street, I probably looked like an adult. Perhaps knowing my age might have stopped them from whistling. But they didn't know who they were whistling at, did they? So, why not just NOT whistle at any woman? It's really not that hard to hold one's tongue!

I have been pestered in many, many ways throughout my life. In 6th grade, there was another boy in my class who, just about every single time he walked by my desk, would push ALL my books onto the floor. It was very annoying, and I was the only person in the class he did that too. When I remember that kid, I think, "Oh, what an annoying kid. He was such a pest!" But there are none of the bad feelings that are associated with the other memories I mentioned above.

Bullying/pestering of a sexual nature IS different.



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29 Jan 2015, 5:44 pm

I absolutely agree that society has become very, very polarized over matters of sexual harassment and we need to have shades of grey in determining wrongdoing and punishment. As long as people think their only choices are between zero punishment and condemnation for life, many, many behaviors like this (and rapes too) will go unreported because people don't want the perpetrator imprisoned (or even raped in prison) for LIFE.

People seem to be divided into two camps: one of "rape culture" and rape apologists who rationalize any act out of being rape or harassment while discrediting true rape victims, and one of extremists who think telling slightly off-color jokes or complimenting someone on her hair is harassment (at least at work) and treat anyone and everyone technically guilty of "harassment" by their definition like monsters who deserve to be branded as sex offenders for life. Unfortunately, having punishments that fit crimes as described in this thread will anger BOTH these camps. Many people cannot fathom the idea of someone who commits harassment or assault EVER changing.

I think teenage boys who pester a girl to grant sexual favors after she's said no should be given punishment at home and/or school, but definitely NOT charged criminally. The punishment should be stiffer if the perpetrator is an adult, but it's still not a crime that calls for life in prison and/or registered as a sex offender. Attempting to actually force the act makes the harassment become assault or rape, and calls for a lengthy prison sentence. It's sad to me that so many people don't see the "common sense" in this.

The false dichotomy of completely innocent person vs. monster makes good people (especially on the autism spectrum) afraid to try anything with people they like lest they cross an unseen line, and enables rapists to rape confident that they can get their victims not to report it. More guilty go free, AND more innocent are punished.


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nerdygirl
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30 Jan 2015, 9:25 am

Pertains to the discussion:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... on-phones/

A Facebook friend commented that she had a friend that pulled her son out of middle-school to homeschool him because his classmates were bringing porn to school. The mother reported it to the principal, who just said, "They're exploring. Boys will be boys."

Now, regardless of what you think about 11-year old boys looking at porn, it shouldn't be allowed on school grounds. The stuff is not allowed to be sold to those under 18.



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30 Jan 2015, 5:11 pm

I will venture to say that porn can be a harmless outlet for newly sexual teenage boys, as long as they learn to distinguish fantasy from reality. Unfortunately, since we don't teach kids this stuff, kids with porn get wrong ideas from it. But we also shouldn't completely suppress sexuality until the age of 18.


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nerdygirl
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31 Jan 2015, 6:31 am

Comp_Geek_573 wrote:
I will venture to say that porn can be a harmless outlet for newly sexual teenage boys, as long as they learn to distinguish fantasy from reality. Unfortunately, since we don't teach kids this stuff, kids with porn get wrong ideas from it. But we also shouldn't completely suppress sexuality until the age of 18.


Porn is demeaning to women. That's kind of my point through all my posts on this thread. Boys should be taught to respect girls and women. The behaviors we have been talking about do not respect girls and women. I can't say they are *criminal*, but they are disrespectful.

Not looking at porn does not equate suppressing sexuality. Sexuality can develop in much healthier ways.



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31 Jan 2015, 10:42 am

nerdygirl wrote:
Comp_Geek_573 wrote:
I will venture to say that porn can be a harmless outlet for newly sexual teenage boys, as long as they learn to distinguish fantasy from reality. Unfortunately, since we don't teach kids this stuff, kids with porn get wrong ideas from it. But we also shouldn't completely suppress sexuality until the age of 18.


Porn is demeaning to women. That's kind of my point through all my posts on this thread. Boys should be taught to respect girls and women. The behaviors we have been talking about do not respect girls and women. I can't say they are *criminal*, but they are disrespectful.

Not looking at porn does not equate suppressing sexuality. Sexuality can develop in much healthier ways.


Thats true. All of these examples discussed in this thread (porn, bra snapping etc) are behaviours that are disrespectful towards women. They are some form of bullying or harassment (except the porn, thats just disrespectful), still unsure whether snapping bras is sexual harassment in particular. It is annoying, but I'm not sure how sexual it would be. I agree, I am not going to exaggerate and say that they are criminal behaviours and that all boys who do this should be criminalized. Because their brains are still immature, they need to learn that this is wrong. I don't believe that sexual harassment should be criminalized, unless they are an adult and you are a minor, and/or they try to force you into doing something sexually wrong or they touch you when you tell them not to.


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01 Feb 2015, 2:11 pm

Yes, the boys are getting these ideas from porn. But looking at porn is still better than actually doing it to the girls even after they've been told to cut it out.

Would you rather have someone looking at porn, or actually harassing people?


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03 Feb 2015, 5:01 pm

I don't think porn is demeaning to women or to men. People choose to do porn and it's nowhere near as easy as you think to actually get in an actual porn movie. Why do you think that consenting to have sex on camera is demeaning to women? Doing porn isn't like being a $20 ho because you are on the streets with nowhere to live and no other way to get money for food/shelter/usually drugs too. Anybody who wants to can be a $20 ho, but it's pretty difficult to get into an actual porn movie, unless you are talking about those amature sites where anybody can send in a video.

Nobody falls backasswards into porn, no matter how they tell it in books and made for tv movies.

Being filmed without consent is demeaning, whether it's done to a woman or a man.

As for people going overboard about sex offenders, well my nephew who is now 21 is a sex offender for life. He was 18 and his gf was 17. They had sex and after he broke up with her she told her dad and he pressed charges on him. He is still on probation over this and is a registered sex offended. For having consensual sex. With his gf. The first time wasn't even after he was 18, they were both underage when they started doing it. That's the type of thing that's ridiculous. That's not a sex offense, that's a pissed off ex using a technical detail to screw somebody's life up forever. I don't much care for the little s**t, but he sure doesn't deserve something like that. I'm pretty sure that even the most rabid person would agree with me on that issue. His crime was not cutting out the sex after he turned 18. ridiculous.


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04 Feb 2015, 8:19 am

I don't think it was sexual harassment. That sounds like the classic situation where other kids pick on the aspie. I had a similar situation in high school where two girls told me that a certain guy liked me. So I tested the water and said hi to the guy and he said "You're f*&^ weird you better stay away from me."

Sexual harassment would be even more provocative.



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08 Feb 2015, 2:14 pm

Summer_Twilight wrote:
I don't think it was sexual harassment. That sounds like the classic situation where other kids pick on the aspie. I had a similar situation in high school where two girls told me that a certain guy liked me. So I tested the water and said hi to the guy and he said "You're f*&^ weird you better stay away from me."

Sexual harassment would be even more provocative.


You're probably right. Its a combination of that and the familiar situation of middle schoolers thirsty for attention.

Since the guy they mentioned is younger than me, I wouldn't test the waters or say anything to give them the wrong idea. At least try not to say anything inappropriate that they could take the wrong way. What the guy said to you is really rude, regardless what he thought of you. Thats just not acceptable to say to anyone. Like really? All you said was hi.

They purposely do a lot of other things just to get me to react. I can't call it bullying exactly, because I don't think it was intended to hurt me or my feelings. Some examples:

-Playing inappropriate music really loud, then looking at me to see my face expression
-Randomly doing weird movements and dancing, then, again, looking at me to see how I react
-Talking really loud, then looking over at me and my friends


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31 Aug 2015, 7:26 am

I was recently terminated for a complaint of sexual harassment in the workplace. It was a traumatic experience for me as I have never been fired and I had to spend a few days in the hospital afterword for major depression. Even saying you love working with someone can me misconstrued as a sexually overt comment either in this town or in the social services industry, I don't know which generalization to make. I admitted to a coworker I had feelings for them that were becoming less platonic, told my supervisor so I could get advice on how to handle the situation and they referred me to a therapist. The therapist told me I had to work on developing a working relationship with this woman. I had previously informed my supervisor that I was on the autistic spectrum as an aspie. I informed my therapist that I am an aspie. I feel I was wrongfully terminated.

I looked up title VII prior to my stay at West Springs Hospital, in order for there to be actual sexual harassment three things should or could happen. One, the statements are of a sexually overt nature; there are many types of love however for the sake of my comment I guess I should assume they believe love can only imply physical intimacy. Two, the nature of the comments must create an offensive work environment such that the employees cannot perform their job or create a situation in which employment was contingent on such a relationship. I tried to do what my supervisors asked and I was still terminated, I do not interact with the coworker to know if I was affecting her performance but as she was well liked by her coworkers I will assume I was not. Three, that the employment decisions for the coworker be based on said sexual harassment. Which did not occur.

However even if I do file a wrongful termination suit, what do I gain from it? I won't get my job back and I wouldn't want it back if I cannot trust my coworkers to help me avoid it when I ask them for advice, actually I believe it was because I asked one of them for advice that I was fired. I know I get to request a formal letter of termination citing reason for termination however I would like the evidence of how I violated such sexual harassment policy. Should I be talking to an employment lawyer about this? Due to my aspie status could I argue that I missed the social cue from her because the only response I got from her was continued office dialogue, not 'I do not feel comfortable around you. Please stop.'? I did not know my comments were unwelcome. How does a male aspie move on from something like this?