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Fnord
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28 Jan 2015, 7:17 am

The evidence is around you.

Nature indicates that a very pervasive, subtle, interactive natural laws are at work out there.


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28 Jan 2015, 7:59 am

sophisticated wrote:
The evidence is around you.

Nature indicates that a very powerful, intelligent and supreme being is out there.

Exactly. The trouble is evidence is open to interpretation. People will take it to mean whatever they want it to mean.

It's evidence of both. In response to Fnord, I'd ask why it has to be either/or? I think there's room for both. One OR the other, I think, is a false dichotomy.



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28 Jan 2015, 9:19 am

There is an abundance of evidence to suggest that natural forces operate in accordance with immutable natural principles.

There is no evidence to even suggest any supernatural influence is involved.

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? Isn't it enough to gaze in wonder at the night-time sky without having to believe that there is an alien civilization orbiting each star? Isn't it enough to see the fluffy white clouds in the same sky without having to believe that there is a harp-strumming winged spirit seated on each one? Isn't it enough to bury a dead friend or relative without having to believe that they also exist in a perfect body in a perfect environment where they will remain forever? Isn't it enough to see their deaths as tragedies without having to believe that a disembodied malevolent spirit is responsible for their deaths?

If you answered 'No' to any one of these questions, then please continue to enjoy your fantasy world.

I'll take reality, instead.


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


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28 Jan 2015, 9:36 am

I haven't been the recipient of evidence of a "god" who is consciously aware of being a "god."

Perhaps, there is a "superior" force which served as the catalyst which instigated all other forces.



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28 Jan 2015, 9:58 am

Our species used to fear the Winter, thinking it was an angry deity punishing them for doing something or not doing something in accordance with some pictures drawn on a cave wall. They would sacrifice animals or each other, dress up and do little dances in an attempt to please it so that it brought back the big bright fireball in the sky and let their crops grow again. In Springtime, this happened and they thought it was because of what they had done. Everybody believed this and did not question it. Most children can now explain that this is due to Seasonal changes determined by the orbit of the Earth around the Sun.

Our achievements as a species are nothing short of remarkable; we have, through hundreds of years of investigation, study and ingenuity found reasons, causes and explanations for thousands upon thousands of spectacular and amazing natural events and phenomena. Our understanding of the Natural World and beyond, into the Cosmos is astounding, fascinating and those alive today should feel immeasurably lucky to have such knowledge literally at their fingertips. To still, in 2015 credit them to the primitive and ignorant notion of a deity is to belittle these discoveries and to demean those who have contributed to them and to display a deliberate ignorance of what Humankind has accomplished, choosing instead to trust and believe the misinformed speculation written down in supposed holy texts by Men whose height of technology was a bag strapped to a Donkey, or a some misguided "contemporary" diluted version based on it, amended to still appear relevant today.

Future generations will look upon religion in the same way as we now look at those who put on Monkey costumes and danced to make their crops grow. Sadly, probably not in my lifetime.


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aghogday
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28 Jan 2015, 12:14 pm

Fnord wrote:
There is an abundance of evidence to suggest that natural forces operate in accordance with immutable natural principles.

There is no evidence to even suggest any supernatural influence is involved.

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? Isn't it enough to gaze in wonder at the night-time sky without having to believe that there is an alien civilization orbiting each star? Isn't it enough to see the fluffy white clouds in the same sky without having to believe that there is a harp-strumming winged spirit seated on each one? Isn't it enough to bury a dead friend or relative without having to believe that they also exist in a perfect body in a perfect environment where they will remain forever? Isn't it enough to see their deaths as tragedies without having to believe that a disembodied malevolent spirit is responsible for their deaths?

If you answered 'No' to any one of these questions, then please continue to enjoy your fantasy world.

I'll take reality, instead.


Sure all that's nice but if one imagined nothing else but what IS reality NOW, we COULD all still be living in metaphorical caves.

And sadly enough some still are, to at least some degree, with little to NO ability to IMAGINE SOMETHING NEW.

I CHOOSE LIFE OUT OF THE CAVE, to paraphrase a quote from an historically centuries wise philosopher.

Unless one has ventured out of the CAVE this may ALL just BE Gibberish.

I have FAITH THAT at least some folks in the reading audience see A DEEPER LIFE THAN nihilism and CYNICISM.

BUT OF COURSE as my close to photographic memory for text over the span of 50 something years serves, YOU have already identified yourself as a THEIST but choose NOT TO DEFEND your belief PER WHAT it even is.

I hold nothing back, and that for me is A FREEING way to live. ;)


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28 Jan 2015, 12:32 pm

badgerface wrote:
Our species used to fear the Winter, thinking it was an angry deity punishing them for doing something or not doing something in accordance with some pictures drawn on a cave wall. They would sacrifice animals or each other, dress up and do little dances in an attempt to please it so that it brought back the big bright fireball in the sky and let their crops grow again. In Springtime, this happened and they thought it was because of what they had done. Everybody believed this and did not question it. Most children can now explain that this is due to Seasonal changes determined by the orbit of the Earth around the Sun.

Our achievements as a species are nothing short of remarkable; we have, through hundreds of years of investigation, study and ingenuity found reasons, causes and explanations for thousands upon thousands of spectacular and amazing natural events and phenomena. Our understanding of the Natural World and beyond, into the Cosmos is astounding, fascinating and those alive today should feel immeasurably lucky to have such knowledge literally at their fingertips. To still, in 2015 credit them to the primitive and ignorant notion of a deity is to belittle these discoveries and to demean those who have contributed to them and to display a deliberate ignorance of what Humankind has accomplished, choosing instead to trust and believe the misinformed speculation written down in supposed holy texts by Men whose height of technology was a bag strapped to a Donkey, or a some misguided "contemporary" diluted version based on it, amended to still appear relevant today.

Future generations will look upon religion in the same way as we now look at those who put on Monkey costumes and danced to make their crops grow. Sadly, probably not in my lifetime.


Actually if future generations ever gain any common sense they will at least dance thoughout the course of a lifetime from child to elder, and truly BECOME HUMAN AGAIN.

Science now shows that the physical intelligence of dance in metaphor of all of what the art of physical intelligence can FREELY be drives the emotional intelligence of emotional regulation, sensory integration, short term memory, and cognitive executive functioning, INCLUDING FOCUS.

And it is a major potential causal factor for Autism that therapists are now using to 'COMBAT' AUTISM through movement therapy.

Sitting on one's BUTT IS PERHAPS THE MOST dangerous thing a human will ever do, to potentially end up in a self imposed prison of literal hell.

I love the following video from the Twilight Zone; old yes, but still presently truer than ever for humanly self imposed prisons from HUMANITY ITSELF.

IT IS ALL NATURAL ALL COMMON SENSE, and now science is finally catching up to the most basic of all common sense human truths that humans are evolved to keep on the move scanning the horizons for prey and predator moving in a balance of mind and body to literally escape death.

THAT and connecting to other humans in loving socially cooperative ways IS THE MEANING OF LIFE.

ALL THE REST OF THIS IS JUST a complex collection of ABSTRACT CONSTRUCTED HIGHWAYS TO POTENTIAL REAL HUMAN HELL.

I'VE ALREADY escaped and taking anyone to the basic common sense truth, is truly the job of JOB that I cannot even do for my really still fit but sitting still on the chair watching T.V. wife.

She don't dance and REFUSES TO DO IT but she'll never know the bliss in life, I do, until she does the metaphorical REAL DANCE OF LIFE.

NAH, THE OLD PRIMITIVE FOLKS in the monkey suits dancing together in the joy of believing they have some meaning AND PURPOSE in life, are truly not the ignorant ones and FAR FAR FROM IT.

AND WITH THAT SAID, HERE are two ways of life:





And truly it doesn't matter if religion or science takes one THERE.

THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH, AND NO ONE ESCAPES THEIR EVOLUTION AS IS FROM MOTHER NATURE TRUE, THE ONE TRUE GOD OF ALL THAT IS NOW truth. ;)

And to be clear, this is just another monologue rant from Fred.

You just inspired it with your words but it is not at all directed at you, friend. :)

I might use it for free verse poetry somewhere else, depending on where the ZEN ART of life takes me NEXT!..;)

A person who is financially independent EARNS THAT privilege if they COME TO learn and know HOW TO truly be free THROUGH their own Relative Free Will of choosing IT. :)


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28 Jan 2015, 12:55 pm

AngelRho wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
The evidence is around you.

Nature indicates that a very powerful, intelligent and supreme being is out there.

Exactly. The trouble is evidence is open to interpretation. People will take it to mean whatever they want it to mean.

It's evidence of both. In response to Fnord, I'd ask why it has to be either/or? I think there's room for both. One OR the other, I think, is a false dichotomy.


Throughout history mankind believed in God .. Belief in God is part of our natural state. People have differed about who/what/where God is.

This is the age of science and people have been encouraged to rely on science and so millions around the world have decided to wait until those old bearded scientific men have produced a scientific paper on the existence of God.

Their problem is that science is incredibly limited. And it is not even perfect , there's more than one scientific method and each one of them is flawed in some way.



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28 Jan 2015, 12:58 pm

Fnord wrote:
The evidence is around you.

Nature indicates that a very pervasive, subtle, interactive natural laws are at work out there.


Pervasive yes.

If I was a king of England, I'd be pervasive, I wouldn't intermingle with my subjects.



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28 Jan 2015, 5:26 pm

badgerface wrote:
Our species used to fear the Winter, thinking it was an angry deity punishing them for doing something or not doing something in accordance with some pictures drawn on a cave wall. They would sacrifice animals or each other, dress up and do little dances in an attempt to please it so that it brought back the big bright fireball in the sky and let their crops grow again. In Springtime, this happened and they thought it was because of what they had done. Everybody believed this and did not question it. Most children can now explain that this is due to Seasonal changes determined by the orbit of the Earth around the Sun.

Our achievements as a species are nothing short of remarkable; we have, through hundreds of years of investigation, study and ingenuity found reasons, causes and explanations for thousands upon thousands of spectacular and amazing natural events and phenomena. Our understanding of the Natural World and beyond, into the Cosmos is astounding, fascinating and those alive today should feel immeasurably lucky to have such knowledge literally at their fingertips. To still, in 2015 credit them to the primitive and ignorant notion of a deity is to belittle these discoveries and to demean those who have contributed to them and to display a deliberate ignorance of what Humankind has accomplished, choosing instead to trust and believe the misinformed speculation written down in supposed holy texts by Men whose height of technology was a bag strapped to a Donkey, or a some misguided "contemporary" diluted version based on it, amended to still appear relevant today.

Future generations will look upon religion in the same way as we now look at those who put on Monkey costumes and danced to make their crops grow. Sadly, probably not in my lifetime.
When I read that I had a visual of this!


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28 Jan 2015, 10:03 pm

AngelRho wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
The evidence is around you. Nature indicates that a very powerful, intelligent and supreme being is out there.
Exactly. The trouble is evidence is open to interpretation. People will take it to mean whatever they want it to mean. It's evidence of both. In response to Fnord, I'd ask why it has to be either/or? I think there's room for both. One OR the other, I think, is a false dichotomy.
The scientist looks at the universe and asks, "How did this happen?"; thus science searches for the method.

The religionist looks at the universe and asks, "Why did this happen?"; thus religion searches for a reason.

The two realms of study are not mutually exclusive; but neither are they necessarily two sides of the same coin.

Certainly, this is a simplistic explanation; but it does more clearly explain the two realms and their relationship to each other than does the pointing out of flaws in each others' beliefs.


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


aghogday
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28 Jan 2015, 10:47 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
badgerface wrote:
Our species used to fear the Winter, thinking it was an angry deity punishing them for doing something or not doing something in accordance with some pictures drawn on a cave wall. They would sacrifice animals or each other, dress up and do little dances in an attempt to please it so that it brought back the big bright fireball in the sky and let their crops grow again. In Springtime, this happened and they thought it was because of what they had done. Everybody believed this and did not question it. Most children can now explain that this is due to Seasonal changes determined by the orbit of the Earth around the Sun.

Our achievements as a species are nothing short of remarkable; we have, through hundreds of years of investigation, study and ingenuity found reasons, causes and explanations for thousands upon thousands of spectacular and amazing natural events and phenomena. Our understanding of the Natural World and beyond, into the Cosmos is astounding, fascinating and those alive today should feel immeasurably lucky to have such knowledge literally at their fingertips. To still, in 2015 credit them to the primitive and ignorant notion of a deity is to belittle these discoveries and to demean those who have contributed to them and to display a deliberate ignorance of what Humankind has accomplished, choosing instead to trust and believe the misinformed speculation written down in supposed holy texts by Men whose height of technology was a bag strapped to a Donkey, or a some misguided "contemporary" diluted version based on it, amended to still appear relevant today.

Future generations will look upon religion in the same way as we now look at those who put on Monkey costumes and danced to make their crops grow. Sadly, probably not in my lifetime.
When I read that I had a visual of this!


Yep.. if i could clone me.......

And truly when i go rave dancing every Thursday Night with several hundred college age folks.. to the tune of 44 weeks of dancing tomorrow night that's the way they like it.... WILD AND FREE...

And yes i have the photos to prove IT of me with over 100 gorgeous girls.. upon request..;)

The wild MAMMALS STILL get the job done.....

BUT ANYway thanks for linking that video, it made me smile.. and giggle just a little bit.. like a WEREWOLF!..;)

And I'll leave you with this for now..per the video response below....

And I hope you feel better.. as i used to feel the same about the world that you do now.. for a short period of the deepest parts of my 5 year illness.....

i'm pretty old and really young all at the same time!

At least for now....


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29 Jan 2015, 2:43 am

Fnord wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
The evidence is around you. Nature indicates that a very powerful, intelligent and supreme being is out there.
Exactly. The trouble is evidence is open to interpretation. People will take it to mean whatever they want it to mean. It's evidence of both. In response to Fnord, I'd ask why it has to be either/or? I think there's room for both. One OR the other, I think, is a false dichotomy.
The scientist looks at the universe and asks, "How did this happen?"; thus science searches for the method.

The religionist looks at the universe and asks, "Why did this happen?"; thus religion searches for a reason.

The two realms of study are not mutually exclusive; but neither are they necessarily two sides of the same coin.

Certainly, this is a simplistic explanation; but it does more clearly explain the two realms and their relationship to each other than does the pointing out of flaws in each others' beliefs.


Religion does not search for a reason. Religion gives you the reason.



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29 Jan 2015, 3:54 am

sophisticated wrote:
Throughout history mankind believed in God .. Belief in God is part of our natural state. People have differed about who/what/where God is.

Throughout history and pre-history, people believed in many different gods. In the absence of the knowledge we now have, a supernatural explanation seemed the only explanation.

As for the evidence of God's existence being all around us, that raises two issues.

The first is, if that's true, then which god?
Richard Dawkins wrote:
We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.

The second issue is, Clarke's third law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And the world around us seems similarly magical.


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29 Jan 2015, 5:51 am

aghogday wrote:
Actually if future generations ever gain any common sense they will at least dance thoughout the course of a lifetime from child to elder, and truly BECOME HUMAN AGAIN.

Science now shows that the physical intelligence of dance in metaphor of all of what the art of physical intelligence can FREELY be drives the emotional intelligence of emotional regulation, sensory integration, short term memory, and cognitive executive functioning, INCLUDING FOCUS.

And it is a major potential causal factor for Autism that therapists are now using to 'COMBAT' AUTISM through movement therapy.

Sitting on one's BUTT IS PERHAPS THE MOST dangerous thing a human will ever do, to potentially end up in a self imposed prison of literal hell.

I love the following video from the Twilight Zone; old yes, but still presently truer than ever for humanly self imposed prisons from HUMANITY ITSELF.

IT IS ALL NATURAL ALL COMMON SENSE, and now science is finally catching up to the most basic of all common sense human truths that humans are evolved to keep on the move scanning the horizons for prey and predator moving in a balance of mind and body to literally escape death.

THAT and connecting to other humans in loving socially cooperative ways IS THE MEANING OF LIFE.

ALL THE REST OF THIS IS JUST a complex collection of ABSTRACT CONSTRUCTED HIGHWAYS TO POTENTIAL REAL HUMAN HELL.

I'VE ALREADY escaped and taking anyone to the basic common sense truth, is truly the job of JOB that I cannot even do for my really still fit but sitting still on the chair watching T.V. wife.

She don't dance and REFUSES TO DO IT but she'll never know the bliss in life, I do, until she does the metaphorical REAL DANCE OF LIFE.

NAH, THE OLD PRIMITIVE FOLKS in the monkey suits dancing together in the joy of believing they have some meaning AND PURPOSE in life, are truly not the ignorant ones and FAR FAR FROM IT.

And truly it doesn't matter if religion or science takes one THERE.

THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH, AND NO ONE ESCAPES THEIR EVOLUTION AS IS FROM MOTHER NATURE TRUE, THE ONE TRUE GOD OF ALL THAT IS NOW truth. ;)

And to be clear, this is just another monologue rant from Fred.

You just inspired it with your words but it is not at all directed at you, friend. :)

I might use it for free verse poetry somewhere else, depending on where the ZEN ART of life takes me NEXT!..;)

A person who is financially independent EARNS THAT privilege if they COME TO learn and know HOW TO truly be free THROUGH their own Relative Free Will of choosing IT. :)


Cool. To be clear; I am not knocking my ancestors who did dress up as [insert animal name] and dance. They did not know any better; they didn't have even the smallest fraction of the Scientific knowledge we have today. But, like all of humanity, going back hundreds of thousands of years, their accomplishments, desire to create communities, societies and agriculture are part of the foundations of Humankind's history, and without their will to dance and celebrate life and it's mysteries, we might not even be here today to look back at them.

I look back at them with fascination and fondness. Their 'ignorance' is nothing derogatory, it was simply the absence of knowledge in a time when it was impossible to know anything like what we do now. of course they thought lightning was an expression of anger from a deity, of course they thought Earthquakes were the pounding of the Earth by a celestial entity. Had I been born 500,000 years ago I would have been there, dancing, shouting at the sky and mumbling to myself thinking I was talking to a magical being who lived in the clouds too.

They are part of our History, a crucial part. Not only for their will to thrive and sustain themselves, but also to respectfully serve as a benchmark to show our progress in terms of knowledge, or at least should do.

I can't say I disagree with any of what you said :) as ever, I find your metaphorical use of the word 'god' to describe the natural occurring laws of Evolution, and nature itself refreshingly poetic - not a being, sat on a cloud controlling anything, but an all-encompassing description of how the Universe works, from the hugest to the microscopic scale.

Dancing, though. Not my thing, but you go for it 8)


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29 Jan 2015, 7:13 am

sophisticated wrote:
Fnord wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
The evidence is around you. Nature indicates that a very powerful, intelligent and supreme being is out there.
Exactly. The trouble is evidence is open to interpretation. People will take it to mean whatever they want it to mean. It's evidence of both. In response to Fnord, I'd ask why it has to be either/or? I think there's room for both. One OR the other, I think, is a false dichotomy.
The scientist looks at the universe and asks, "How did this happen?"; thus science searches for the method. The religionist looks at the universe and asks, "Why did this happen?"; thus religion searches for a reason. The two realms of study are not mutually exclusive; but neither are they necessarily two sides of the same coin. Certainly, this is a simplistic explanation; but it does more clearly explain the two realms and their relationship to each other than does the pointing out of flaws in each others' beliefs.
Religion does not search for a reason. Religion gives you the reason.
Religion gives you a reason because, as has been pointed out before, "... if that's true, then which god?"

Religionists specify a singular divine origin for "Creation", yet provide no proof that they are right.


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.