Why do people fear that free will might not exist?

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Lazar_Kaganovich
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17 Apr 2015, 2:07 am

Sum wrote:

First in all respect, though you have good points, I see no reason I should regard you as an expert on this subject (I say this in response to your ad hominem attack on my own knowledge). First, it is important to note that any claims on our either of our own credentials are essentially mute. We are after all on an Internet forum. Where it is nigh impossible to prove ones identity (thought I would get that out of the way in case you come back and say your a professor or something). Second, Of your 287 posts I was only able to find one on the Computers, math, science, and technology board. Now this by itself proves little. However, it is non the less important to not.

Now to actually respond to your arguments, and point out the flaws. In your first paragraph you say that The fact that quantum mechanics may be involved (may is a little weak it is almost guaranteed to be involved) does not prove free will. Further backing this claim up by your point that it is involved in semi-conductors and quantum computing.

For this I will direct you to the aforementioned single post you happened to have (at the time of me writing) in the Computers, math, science, and technology boards. You clearly state that Artificial intelligence will not be possible until function quantum computers are created. Now if an artificial intelligence is sentient our aware of its surroundings in a way that allows it to make choices based on this awareness then your argument is non-sequitur.

Now let's move on. Seeing as I don't have all day to deal with a difference of opinions I will direct you to Quantum entanglement as an answer to your first statement in pgh 2 (also mathematically predictable does not mean it results in an absolute certain value but I digress). In regards to quantum white noise I will point out that the brain and a computer are two Very different things one of them we understand quite well having created it the other we are far from understanding. You simply can not equate the two. Also, out of curiosity I would like a source on that quantum white noise causing irrational behavior. (I would like to see the research and study before I respond since the one thing I have learned from life is the more you learn, the more you realize there is to learn). http://www.informationphilosopher.com/f ... noise.html is some of what a Google search turned up and it appears to support my position. Also that article could in part answer your challenge to me since I do not feel like personally "showing you how this works" (ignoring the feasibility of such a thing in the confines of the boards we are in.

The first paragraph really just went to show that there is no point in continued discussion on the topic since even if you were to some how prove that we have no free will it would have no logical purpose because we would simply go on behaving as if we did.





I do not claim to be an expert on quantum mechanics, though I do no something about it. :wink:

Quantum entanglement is a good example of how determinism arises from true randomness. Entanglement is when you have a system of quanta whose states are interdependent. That is, each quantum's states are not independent of the other quanta involved. Specifically it involves quantum decoherence(AKA wave function collapse)where a superposition of energy states collapses into a single state. Now quantum mechanics obeys time reversal symmetry, whereas classical physics on the scale we can observe with our senses, particularly thermodynamic processes that involve an increase in entropy, do not obey time reversal symmetry.

What I'm asking for is some evidence from EXPERIMENTAL physics and neurophysiology that quantum decoherence can actually play a role in brain function and allow for the possibility of free will. There still is insufficient solid evidence that quantum physics plays any kind of macroscopic role in brain function. Macroscopic quantum coherence, or superposition of states, has been demonstrated experimentally with superconductors and superfluids(like liquid Helium-3). Ditto for macroscopic quantum entanglement which has been demonstrated with Bose-Einstein condensates which require extremely low temperatures < 5 Kelvins. The thing about quantum decoherence in particular is that it in many cases it is thermodynamically irreversible and *can* indeed be deterministic after all. So what you would need for true non-determinism and actual free will is thermodynamically reversible decoherence in the human brain.

Keep in mind that quantum mechanics is a *model* of reality on a very small scale(from the molecular scale on downwards). Many people think that it actually is reality despite the fact that the quantum model does not describe the behavior of matter and energy on the "classical" level and it is entirely inconsistent with general relativity.



Sum
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17 Apr 2015, 8:43 am

Well now if we're talking experimental physics that does change things drastically (personally I much prefer to stay in the realm of theory and equations:)). Oh, and up front I apologize for the short response ahead of time (For whatever reason I find it hard to focus this morning) I do quite enjoy talking to you. The first experimental component I will direct you you to I recently found in preparation for our talks admittedly it is a video that sides with me. So if you do not want to watch the video the part that matters is from 8:42 to then end of the demonstration. The video is what is not random? By veritasium. The part I'm directing you to is a set 3 physical systems that demonstrate chaos theory set off at the same time in the same(not perfectly the same but essentially the same) way. The second thing I will direct you to is a little bit of both http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... 1309#sec-5 if you want to skip the fluff (which I do not recommend because the whole thing is interesting) look to part 5. Now admittedly I do not agree with everything in the paper.... (On some "facts" but I rarely agree with anyone one hundred percent on the facts actually I think that is a phenomenon yet to occur :D) the part to look to explains a possible correlation. However, I think and I do not know this for certain, but I think the possible disconnect we experience is based on how we like to view things. Do you prefer experimental physics or theoretical if you don't mind me asking? Anyway, my system if you want a point to attack is based on the concept of the particle superimposition being done by the brain itself. When my grammar goes you can tell, I am having a hard time thinking (I've been a little ill the past three weeks (3 emergency room visits and I'm quite tired, I think I'll remove myself from our conversation for a bit after this post... I'll be back though :D I just need to do something that uses less of my brains resources for a bit)). Yeah, that entire thing above is a grammatical train wreck.... :(



aghogday
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17 Apr 2015, 9:04 am

Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
Sum wrote:

First in all respect, though you have good points, I see no reason I should regard you as an expert on this subject (I say this in response to your ad hominem attack on my own knowledge). First, it is important to note that any claims on our either of our own credentials are essentially mute. We are after all on an Internet forum. Where it is nigh impossible to prove ones identity (thought I would get that out of the way in case you come back and say your a professor or something). Second, Of your 287 posts I was only able to find one on the Computers, math, science, and technology board. Now this by itself proves little. However, it is non the less important to not.

Now to actually respond to your arguments, and point out the flaws. In your first paragraph you say that The fact that quantum mechanics may be involved (may is a little weak it is almost guaranteed to be involved) does not prove free will. Further backing this claim up by your point that it is involved in semi-conductors and quantum computing.

For this I will direct you to the aforementioned single post you happened to have (at the time of me writing) in the Computers, math, science, and technology boards. You clearly state that Artificial intelligence will not be possible until function quantum computers are created. Now if an artificial intelligence is sentient our aware of its surroundings in a way that allows it to make choices based on this awareness then your argument is non-sequitur.

Now let's move on. Seeing as I don't have all day to deal with a difference of opinions I will direct you to Quantum entanglement as an answer to your first statement in pgh 2 (also mathematically predictable does not mean it results in an absolute certain value but I digress). In regards to quantum white noise I will point out that the brain and a computer are two Very different things one of them we understand quite well having created it the other we are far from understanding. You simply can not equate the two. Also, out of curiosity I would like a source on that quantum white noise causing irrational behavior. (I would like to see the research and study before I respond since the one thing I have learned from life is the more you learn, the more you realize there is to learn). http://www.informationphilosopher.com/f ... noise.html is some of what a Google search turned up and it appears to support my position. Also that article could in part answer your challenge to me since I do not feel like personally "showing you how this works" (ignoring the feasibility of such a thing in the confines of the boards we are in.

The first paragraph really just went to show that there is no point in continued discussion on the topic since even if you were to some how prove that we have no free will it would have no logical purpose because we would simply go on behaving as if we did.


I do not claim to be an expert on quantum mechanics, though I do no something about it. :wink:

Quantum entanglement is a good example of how determinism arises from true randomness. Entanglement is when you have a system of quanta whose states are interdependent. That is, each quantum's states are not independent of the other quanta involved. Specifically it involves quantum decoherence(AKA wave function collapse)where a superposition of energy states collapses into a single state. Now quantum mechanics obeys time reversal symmetry, whereas classical physics on the scale we can observe with our senses, particularly thermodynamic processes that involve an increase in entropy, do not obey time reversal symmetry.

What I'm asking for is some evidence from EXPERIMENTAL physics and neurophysiology that quantum decoherence can actually play a role in brain function and allow for the possibility of free will. There still is insufficient solid evidence that quantum physics plays any kind of macroscopic role in brain function. Macroscopic quantum coherence, or superposition of states, has been demonstrated experimentally with superconductors and superfluids(like liquid Helium-3). Ditto for macroscopic quantum entanglement which has been demonstrated with Bose-Einstein condensates which require extremely low temperatures < 5 Kelvins. The thing about quantum decoherence in particular is that it in many cases it is thermodynamically irreversible and *can* indeed be deterministic after all. So what you would need for true non-determinism and actual free will is thermodynamically reversible decoherence in the human brain.

Keep in mind that quantum mechanics is a *model* of reality on a very small scale(from the molecular scale on downwards). Many people think that it actually is reality despite the fact that the quantum model does not describe the behavior of matter and energy on the "classical" level and it is entirely inconsistent with general relativity.


Honestly, PERHAPS the saddest thing of all, IN REAL LIFE,

is folks who come to believe they have no control over theIR life,

as random globs of 'crap' from the Universe, as is.

Trust me, if you ever become a shut-in with 19 documented disorders, and cannot raise your arms over your head without almost passing out, for five long years; additionally, with the worst documented pain known to mankind that is like someone drilling your teeth without novocaine, except it is in your eye and ear, and find the free will inside to cure all of that; and to do what other folks 'in the know', describe as amazing accomplishments of actual physical feats that so-called science say are not possible for a disabled human being, like in my case, leg pressing 930LBS on a parallel leg press machine, which is much harder, per the laws of physics to do, than a vertical leg press machine, 14 times, slowly with your arms raised in the air, growling like a gorilla that no one else currently evidences doing anywhere on YouTube, like this, other than me at age 54, come back and tell me you don't believe in free will.

And not only that I have done an art of dance walk in MIXED martial arts and ballet-like style, documented by way of Nike GPS sports watch over 3400 miles now in 20 months, wherever I go in the general public, as well as documenting, now, well over 200 gorgeous girls grinning ear to ear from the muse of dance I bring to them, in one of the top 100 dance clubs in America, as well as being assessed as the literal "MVP of dance" there, by the general dancing, and spectating audience.

A random glob of bullsH** didn't create that friend; RELATIVE HUMAN FREE WILL JUST DID IT, and does IT, AS IS.

SOME FOLKS HAVE IT; AND SADLY ENOUGH SOME FOLKS DON'T BELIEVE THEY HAVE IT, AND PAY THE CONSEQUENCES, ACCORDINGLY WITH THEIR LACK OF FAITH, HOPE, AND BELIEF IN THEMSELVES in much greater ways of flesh and blood HUMAN POTENTIAL life OF REALLY MORE FULLY LIVING, in what truly counts in life, in connections to other flesh and blood human beings, as nature and evolution 'dictates',

per Mother Nature TRUTH AND LIGHT AKA GOD.

THE TRUTH AND LIGHT BIT, BY THE WAY,

IS SIMPLY A METAPHOR FOR WHAT WORKS, BY A WAY.

To be strong and love, is to have human relative free will.

Anything less, is a self imposed prison of a 'robot mind'.

And truly the lack of relative human free will, is the illusion,
and apparently at least in SOME situations, a place where a
get of jail free card, is as close as relative
human free WILL IS.

So yeah, I know a 'little' about Quantum Physics too;

But I know a whole BUNCH more about human relative FREE WILL,
when the flesh and blood hits the challenges of the real
highways of life, than it appears exists in your universe,
@ALL, at this time; but the GOOD NEWS is CHANGE IS
ALMOST ALWAYS POSSIBLE FOR THE BETTER WITH
RELATIVE HUMAN FREE WILL AND ACCOMPANYING
GREATER POTENTIAL PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE;
regulating emotions, integrating senses, increasing
and enhancing cognitive executive functioning, through
greater focus and short term working memory; that obviously
also is one potential cure for the disabling aspects of Autism
as noted in the clinical environment. Truly, a systemizing mind
without the emoting powers of emotions and senses in mind and
body balance, lacks a great deal of human relative free will; as truly
it is disabling not to exercise relative human free will, in all the ways
that can just happen, when a person just does it, instead of talking about
what they cannot do, anathema to what humans areevolved as, per creatures
that overcome amazing challenges of life, as all free animals do not imprisoned by
false illusions of 'HUMAN ZOO LIFE' through abstract language, cultures, and religions that
do JUST THAT; THAT TRULY AT CORE OF HUMAN NATURE IS NOT 'JUST' AT ALL FOR WHAT
IS POSSIBLE IN HUMAN POTENTIAL WITH RELATIVE FREE WILL, WITH THE METAPHOR OF THE
QUANTUM HUMAN MIND unleashed, WHETHER OR NOT THAT HAS 'SQUAT' TO DO WITH REAL
QUANTUM PHYSICS. The Fact is, IN AT LEAST MY CASE, HUMAN RELATIVE FREE WILL HAS EMPIRICAL
RESULTS THAT I CAN CLEARLY ILLUSTRATE WITH JUST A YOUTUBE LINK, WHEREVER THESE LEGS OF
'STEEL', IN HUMAN RELATIVE FREE WILL
TAKE ME ANYWHERE
I WANNA GO.

AND SURE, the dance halls with hundreds of gorgeous girls, is part of that, with Just a little sampling
of that in my latest blog post, if you think I am just spewing more human bull crap here.

Smiles and HAPPY WILL TO YA, IN NOW, WHEN YA GET IT AND JUST DO IT...:)

And for NOW THAT reminds me of THIS SONG, BY MIKE WILL, AND MILEY; AMUSINGLY ENOUGH,
to me, at least, with human relative free will in the imaginative creative mind of physical intelligence set FREE;


AKA MY OWN PERSONALLY DEVELOPED METAPHOR OF THE QUANTUM HUMAN MIND UNLEASHED;

AND YEAH,
perhaps the science of Quantum Physics,
one day will better explain how I do what I do, as doctors currently have
NO FRIGGING CLUE,

LITERALLY, NO FRIGGING CLUE.

BUT UGH, science,

per the ugh, scientific method,

is way to slow for me,

baby..;)

I learned the lesson of that as a research associate,

at the University level, of so-called 'expertise',
over 3 decades ago...

Lesson Learned;

EMPIRICAL RESULTS:

ALL NATURAL HUMAN MIRACLES
COME TRUTH.

THE RESULTS SPEAK THE TRUTH.

I DON'T NEED A FRIGGING LAB COAT,
TO EXPRESS THAT TRUTH, EITHER, WITH
WINKS OR NOT, TOO..:)..;)..:)..;)..:)..;)..:)..;)

OR 'MORSE CODE'..;)

LIKE THIS:



'WILL' IS COOL...

WITH SMILESX2..:)..:)


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