The discord in the American political climate

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alex
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24 Apr 2015, 2:03 pm

Historically our politicians have been involved in duels (gun fights to the deaths). Andrew Jackson dueled. And Alexander Hamilton was killed by Vice President burr.

So I think it's a lot more civil now.


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24 Apr 2015, 2:45 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
But one U.S. senator of the 1850's took a cane, and beat another senator to death in the halls of Congress!

I believe he survived.

He did.

The current discord is the conservative GOP versus everyone else.
Right now the conservative/tea party wing of the GOP is now at least half of the party.
This tea party branch has openly stated it's their way or no way!
This has lead to moderate republicans being pushed out or forced to cave to them to retain their seats.

George W Bush in at many times in his presidency stated you are with us or against us!
By 2006 his own party wouldn't back him on issues that they saw as abandonment of conservative ideology as in immigration reform, border security, many treaties, bail outs, banking regulation, etc...
He had to rely heavily on Democrats and independents to get stuff through congress.

Mitch McConnell and his fellow House Leadership famous said when Obama was elected in 2008, they were going to make him and 1-term president and grind the government to a halt!
They reiterated it the day after the 2010 election!

The GOP is so right leaning, they've done the following:

1) the ACA law is mostly copy and pasted from the Massachusetts law which Mitt Romney and his fellow GOP pushed for while working with Democrats. When Obama caved an accepted it, the GOP abandon their support for it.

2) Remember the fabled "Grand Bargain" on budget deficits and entitlement reforms which Boehner and Obama successfully negotiated that was fair clean bill? Well the conservative wing of the GOP found out about it and demanded that Boehner never work with Obama again and to kill the bill, if he wanted to retain his Speakership and his seat in the House. They also vowed to go after any GOP member was wiling to work with Obama and the Democrats, knocking them out of congress.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/cliffhanger/
Watch the PBS documentary here to see how much conservatives are causing trouble for the GOP and grinding the government to a halt.

3) The Gang of Six super committee which was poised to balance the budget and hammer out a long term agreement and submit to an up or down vote in congress. Well they failed because a lone die hard conservative refused to give on taxes and was willing to risk default forcing sequesters. they literally had 5-1 vote (3 Ds and 2 Rs).

4) The last independent blue ribbon budget committee was created after the GOP pressured Obama into signing on. When Obama and the Democrats agreed to vote for the committees recommendations, the conservative GOP decided to kill the bill the in House!

5) Boehner is stilling on numerous clean bipartisan bills in the House, because the conservative GOP hates them. Most notably the comprehensive immigration reform passed by the Senate on Bipartisan terms. If Boehner brings them to a House vote the will pass with Democrats help. Though any GOP member who votes for them, will receive a huge backlash from the Tea Party in primary elections and losing of funds for their own election day campaigns.

6) The reason why we've seen the House deadlock on funding bills, bringing the country to the brink of the default is the conservative wing the House won't let them out of committee and is wiling to bring the country to a full default and currency crash to punish everyone who refuses to support them.

7) Just over 6 weeks ago the conservative House members refused to bring a funding bill for the Dept. of Homeland Security to vote. They did this because they wanted to force immigration stipulations. That bill didn't get enough votes because Democrats and moderate GOP members voted it down. They eventually caved and passed the clean funding bill after all their attempts failed. Said bill reached Obama's desk a few minutes before funding was to run out.

8)The only thing the conservative GOP is willing to do is to authorize a U.S. mission in Syria, including putting boots on the ground.

9) Mitch McConnell, even filibustered his own damn bill, once Obama supported it.


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24 Apr 2015, 3:58 pm

Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. - H.L. Mencken


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24 Apr 2015, 4:21 pm

RoadRatt wrote:
Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. - H.L. Mencken


That is why there need to be more than two parties, and proportional representation will take care of that. Two parties is not enough to represent the different ideological groups. The US has an old fashioned voting system (and that's because they got one so early).



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25 Apr 2015, 12:44 am

trollcatman wrote:
That is why there need to be more than two parties, and proportional representation will take care of that. Two parties is not enough to represent the different ideological groups. The US has an old fashioned voting system (and that's because they got one so early).


To quote Jesse Ventura: Feeling that the two-party system has corrupted the government, Ventura has expressed concern that if a third party became as successful as the Republicans and Democrats, it "will likewise have to corrupt itself. If you already have a two-headed monster, why would you need three?"

We already have at least two more minor parties, that is if I remember correctly. It hasn't helped the American political situation but only made things worse.

The current, as well as the just shortly ago previous, congress has the lowest approval rating in U.S. congressional history. There is a reason behind that. Both parties are at fault, but neither parties supporters would agree...


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25 Apr 2015, 11:31 am

equestriatola wrote:
So it was much worse in the early days of the country...... makes me kind of relieved, but rather worried about the future at the same time.

Umm... well, those early divisions DID lead to a civil war.


Post WWII we had a common enemy that posed a real existential threat to the country. That meant that the left and right had a lot more common ground, and there was less extremist horse cockery going on.

Once the USSR died, both sides felt freer to indulge in partisanship. Bill Clinton divided sides and pushed people to extremes and the contested Bush/Gore election controversy only made things worse.

Now, we have gerrymandering that actually rewards political extremism. I don't see things getting better until they get a lot worse.

I don't see another civil war coming, but you are smart to be worried.


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25 Apr 2015, 11:55 am

People that complain about the discourse of American politics being so much worse at the present time typically are the ones that hold the seat of power at that time who dislike the criticism, their supporters, and young people that don't know any better. Things aren't any different now than they were 10 years ago with Dubya and 10 years ago before that with Clinton, I know that just from what I remember in my lifetime and I am sure it is pretty similar the further back you go too. I'd say if anything things have gotten better, we're not fighting each other on the streets or dueling. Think about the discourse of American politics during the 1950s, was that really better? Then think about what it was like in the 1850s. People tend to always look towards the past with rose colored glasses when it comes to anything.



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25 Apr 2015, 12:09 pm

This is really a karmic/spiritual-consequence in action. A lot of it comes from "infiltration" into American-society. Not a lot can be done right now other than to try to convince everybody to be willing to just bite the bullet try & promote peace & to stop funding punitive-government (details of biting the bullet & promoting peace & the reasons as to why NOT to pay taxes can be read at: Mod edit: removed link promoting the poster's cult)

The fact that taxes go towards punitive-measures in an extortionist-system means negative spiritual-consequences.

Various mind-control systems are set up throughout the land-mass of America, but those who are in control of this technology have greedy and sinister-motives, who don't care about the collateral-suffering the results to the public.

Currently, sinister private International-Bankers are in control of America's government, and presidents are merely puppets of the real leaders who direct control, even though you will never see their faces or hear their names or even know whether they're even human or not (although some have come to light like the Rothchild's & Bilderbergs). The History of The Federal Reserve reveals that is layered in deceptions, and although very detailed and well-researched two and three-hour documentaries exist, I will just include something shorter of a 30-minute duration to help those not yet in the know to get up-to-speed (but for those who do have more time on their hands see here... http://www.amazon.com/Creature-Jekyll-I ... 91298645X/)

equestriatola wrote:
First, a stern warning: Please REFRAIN from posting anything negative or sensitive in this thread. With that said.....
----
It has occurred me that since the turn of the century, there is just too much vitriol in the American political climate. Up until sometime in the 1990s, it used to be that both parties would work for the betterment of the people of the country.

Unfortunately, it seems like that both parties want to undermine each other's efforts, or even fight between parties or within their own. What happened? It's just so sad and sickening that there is so much discord and vitriol in the political climate.

“They say the definition of insanity is repeating the same action, and expecting a different result." - Sadly, while I have voted in every election since 2008 (when I was first eligible) this is what the elections come to; a war of the words.

What are we to do?


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25 Apr 2015, 12:14 pm

Jacoby wrote:
People that complain about the discourse of American politics being so much worse at the present time typically are the ones that hold the seat of power at that time who dislike the criticism, their supporters, and young people that don't know any better. Things aren't any different now than they were 10 years ago with Dubya and 10 years ago before that with Clinton, I know that just from what I remember in my lifetime and I am sure it is pretty similar the further back you go too. I'd say if anything things have gotten better, we're not fighting each other on the streets or dueling. Think about the discourse of American politics during the 1950s, was that really better? Then think about what it was like in the 1850s. People tend to always look towards the past with rose colored glasses when it comes to anything.


Actually, during the 1930s, 40s and 50s there very little discourse in American politics.
Both parties had a grand consensus on what was needed to be done and how to tackle the new found realities.
It was one of the most productive times in U.S. history.
It unraveled in the late 1960s.

Clinton was only hated for trying initiate government take over of healthcare (healthcare reforms) and his affair which led to his impeachment.

Clinton left office with one of the highest public approval ratings in history, which is very unusual in the U.S.
Most presidents leave office with very low public approval ratings.

Bush II was hated because of Iraq mainly and his my way or the highway approach.
Stuff like the Patriot Act and his party's attempt to give the president the power to delay the election for security reasons.


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25 Apr 2015, 12:20 pm

Jacoby wrote:
People that complain about the discourse of American politics being so much worse at the present time typically are the ones that hold the seat of power at that time who dislike the criticism, their supporters, and young people that don't know any better. Things aren't any different now than they were 10 years ago with Dubya and 10 years ago before that with Clinton, I know that just from what I remember in my lifetime and I am sure it is pretty similar the further back you go too. I'd say if anything things have gotten better, we're not fighting each other on the streets or dueling. Think about the discourse of American politics during the 1950s, was that really better? Then think about what it was like in the 1850s. People tend to always look towards the past with rose colored glasses when it comes to anything.

Umm, I'd say yes, it was much better (more moderate) in the 50s because people were a whole lot more reasonable back then and the two parties were MUCH closer in ideologies.

In the 50s, a Republican president spearheaded a huge SOCIALIST domestic improvement project called the interstate highway system...

That could never happen today.

In the 60s conservatives dismissed Ayn Rand was an amoral, crazy old witch. Now, she's revered as some sort of genius.

Today, the extremes are extremer than they have ever been.


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25 Apr 2015, 12:57 pm

I wouldn't say the era of McCarthyism and Rosa Parks was better, I would say it was a lot worse as back then you were liable to wind up in prison for standing up to power or just the suspicion of subversion. Your own personal political beliefs may of been more in vogue but the discourse at the time wasn't any better. Altho in light of Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden as well as the rising tide of identity politics I guess an argument could be made we are on the backslide now as far that goes.



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25 Apr 2015, 1:16 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Umm, I'd say yes, it was much better (more moderate) in the 50s because people were a whole lot more reasonable back then and the two parties were MUCH closer in ideologies.


Communist witch trials, mass surveillance program, state sponsored propaganda, implied religification of state, jim crow, lack of universal suffrage, etc.

GoonSquad wrote:
In the 50s, a Republican president spearheaded a huge SOCIALIST domestic improvement project called the interstate highway system...

That could never happen today.


If ever there was evidence of the stupification effect of the cold war era on American politics, this is it. That you would think of basic infrastructure projects as automatically socialist. Surely the US military is the most socialist project, perhaps.

Of course privately driven infrastructure has advantages too. The London Underground was initially separate companies , with separate lines. The only problem is you had to buy a ticket for each, and interchange was nearly non-existent.

Now we have some of the best connectivity of any underground railway network. Now we are building something called Crossrail, you might want to check it out.

The connectivity on the NY subway, meh. East-west lacking.

Btw still have public water supply? What are you waiting for you pinkos? :wink: You need to catch up the UK and Argentina (of all places). :lol: You are showering in communist water.

GoonSquad wrote:
In the 60s conservatives dismissed Ayn Rand was an amoral, crazy old witch. Now, she's revered as some sort of genius.


I think this a generalisation, but in any case there is a cyclical effect on niche movements.

GoonSquad wrote:
Today, the extremes are extremer than they have ever been.


My dad, who was a civil servant / diplomat in the period you are talking about to the late 90s, and also studied history, would beg to differ.

Don't underestimate, the effect that media and negative PR has on your perception, as well as small world syndrome.



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25 Apr 2015, 2:32 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Umm, I'd say yes, it was much better (more moderate) in the 50s because people were a whole lot more reasonable back then and the two parties were MUCH closer in ideologies.


Communist witch trials, mass surveillance program, state sponsored propaganda, implied religification of state, jim crow, lack of universal suffrage, etc.

Okay, the topic has to do with lack of political cooperation, not the prevalence of backward notions...

HOWEVER, since you mentioned it, I'd say that, with the exception of commie witch trials, all that stuff is still a problem in the US.
Just ask the NSA about mass surveillance... or the folks in Ferguson about jim crow and all the southern states with voter id laws about suffrage. :roll:
Ask the LGBTs in my state what they think about the new law that prohibits cities from enacting civil rights ordinances to protect their rights.

Ask my black neighbors what they think about this silly fuckery.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morn ... -same-day/


Honestly, your post seems ill-thought out and just plain silly.

If I had more time, I'd play. But, its semester's end and I have projects to finish.

So, we'll have to pick this up later...

PS

What you and Jacoby are both doing is confusing historical, social/political progress with contemporary social/political divisions.


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25 Apr 2015, 3:21 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Umm, I'd say yes, it was much better (more moderate) in the 50s because people were a whole lot more reasonable back then and the two parties were MUCH closer in ideologies.


Communist witch trials, mass surveillance program, state sponsored propaganda, implied religification of state, jim crow, lack of universal suffrage, etc.

Okay, the topic has to do with lack of political cooperation, not the prevalence of backward notions...

HOWEVER, since you mentioned it, I'd say that, with the exception of commie witch trials, all that stuff is still a problem in the US.
Just ask the NSA about mass surveillance... or the folks in Ferguson about jim crow and all the southern states with voter id laws about suffrage. :roll:
Ask the LGBTs in my state what they think about the new law that prohibits cities from enacting civil rights ordinances to protect their rights.

Ask my black neighbors what they think about this silly fuckery.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morn ... -same-day/


Honestly, your post seems ill-thought out and just plain silly.

If I had more time, I'd play. But, its semester's end and I have projects to finish.

So, we'll have to pick this up later...


Yeah, but could you argue that any of those things were better in the 50s?



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25 Apr 2015, 3:28 pm

The parties used to co-operate because the previous generations knew that the real and common enemy were the bankers. Now that The Federal Reserve has infiltrated the government & taken control of a nation's money supply it's been a rapid decline in productivity and perpetuation of poverty all to fulfill the insane desires of the corrupt parasitical-elite... they have everybody manipulated to the point of now pushing out agendas that WILL end up leading to more civil-wars...


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