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DentArthurDent
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02 May 2015, 7:57 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I guess smooth surfaces do not exist in nature so hoofs are just better on rough surfaces but then again, humans did invent the wheel eventually so it doesn't seem like we need smooth surfaces to come up with such ideas.


As has already been said, once we started rolling things we needed bi or quadrupedal live forms to drag them over uneven surfaces. It would appear that on small scale at least live can have rotating parts


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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02 May 2015, 9:46 pm

Evolution seems to despise the wheel and that's too bad. How strange humans invented what evolution frowned upon.



Oldavid
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02 May 2015, 10:42 pm

In my juvenile wonderment stage I also thought that it might be advantageous to have wheels instead of prongs for legs and arms... but fortunately the Designer is much cleverer than a 6year old boy.

Wheels would require at least 3 of them for stability if you're not moving.
They would also require brakes.
If you fell over you couldn't get up again.
They would be completely useless for mountain climbing, climbing trees or ladders, or into or out of bed.
Stones, logs, chairs would be useless for seats.
Football would never have been invented.

The idea only demonstrates just how really stupid "evolution" is. A very intelligent and capable Adam and Eve have evolved into a progeny of nutcases.

Naturalistic, Darwin-style "evolution" is an exclusive preserve for egomaniacal daydreamers.



iBlockhead
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02 May 2015, 11:16 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Evolution seems to despise the wheel and that's too bad. How strange humans invented what evolution frowned upon.


The amount of heat and friction generated when the wheel is rolling would not be good for (larger) organisms. Proteins are technically thermosets, not thermoplastics.



DentArthurDent
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03 May 2015, 4:09 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Evolution seems to despise the wheel and that's too bad. How strange humans invented what evolution frowned upon.


Firstly evolution does not despise or frown on anything, it is a process not an entity with direction. Secondly as has already been pointed out to you it is not practical on so many levels, constantly coming across areas you cannot cross, the inability to jump or climb away from predators, starving to death or being attacked due to bogging. Yes this happens to bipeds and quadrupeds but just think of how easily a car, even a 4 wheel drive gets stuck compared to someone on foot. Of course if you childishly believe in creation then the creator might have made the earth complete with a system of roads, paths and lanes .......

As to your assertion "How strange humans invented ........." its not strange at all. Once again ANA do a little reading The Wheel and
Quote:


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Oldavid
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03 May 2015, 5:01 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Evolution seems to despise the wheel and that's too bad. How strange humans invented what evolution frowned upon.


Firstly evolution does not despise or frown on anything, it is a process not an entity with direction. Secondly as has already been pointed out to you it is not practical on so many levels, constantly coming across areas you cannot cross, the inability to jump or climb away from predators, starving to death or being attacked due to bogging. Yes this happens to bipeds and quadrupeds but just think of how easily a car, even a 4 wheel drive gets stuck compared to someone on foot. Of course if you childishly believe in creation then the creator might have made the earth complete with a system of roads, paths and lanes .......

As to your assertion "How strange humans invented ........." its not strange at all. Once again ANA do a little reading The Wheel and
Quote:
Firstly, "evolution" is purely an invention of egomaniacs. It does not exist anywhere in observable physics, chemistry or biology.

Secondly, predators do not exist without prey.

Con-men do not exist without gullible egotistical miserables to prey on.



naturalplastic
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03 May 2015, 7:10 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
You can't grow living wheels on a creature. Even if the wheels are made of dead tissue like finger nails, or horses' hooves, it still has to be constantly generated and regenerated from living tissue. You cant do that for a free spinning wheel. Its not clear that there is even any advantage to wheels over limbs in locomotion for living creatures that dont live on paved roads, and there is no evolutionary route to take to evolve axle/wheel combinations in animals that wouldnt kill off the creature's linneage before it reached fully evolved wheels (which wouldn't like benifit the creature anyway).

Sure you can! What do you think skin cells constantly do? They die, fall off and new ones take their place. It's exactly what you described and when you consider what has evolved to keep the living in motion, it is not far fetched in the slightest to imagine a natural wheel evolving to aid locomotion.


WTF are you talking about?
Can't you read?
Thats exactly my point.

You can generate living skin, and you can even generate dead matter (like hooves, or teeth, or hair, or fingernails). But an animal's body can not do that (with with either dead or living tissue) with....a FREE SPINNING WHEEL ON AN AXIS.

The wheel has to be able spin freely on an axis. So it cant grow out of your body, and you cant feed it with your blood stream. And you cant apply torque to a free spinning wheel with skeletal muscles either. Cant grow wheels, cant sustain wheels, cant regenete/heal them, and you cant power wheels, biologically. And wheels wouldnt be much use to you in the wild anyway. Horses wouldnt be able to move across unpaved grassland. Our monkey ancestors wouldnt be able to move either horizontally through the jungle,nor vertically to climb trees.



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03 May 2015, 7:27 am

Oldavid wrote:
Firstly, "evolution" is purely an invention of egomaniacs. It does not exist anywhere in observable physics, chemistry or biology.

Yes it does. You have had this explained to you many times. Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution.



aghogday
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03 May 2015, 9:37 am

Without wonderment, truly 'life' ceases,

in common sense and metaphor terms

of living now.

And that's philosophy 101.

To do that always requires to veer off topic in philosophy; otherwise new learning is not possible.

Interesting, to me; that no one has brought up the embryonic development of human beings in the similarities that are there between other mammals as well as the similarities that the human embryo goes through in development that mirrors the gills of fish that are far removed from mammals IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT CLASS OF ZOOLOGY CLASSIFICATION.

THAT is most definitely evidence of common ancestry;

and common ancestry, in common sense terms, is evolution;
when THAT is associated with totally different CLASSES OF ANIMALS.

Case closed there; as the evidence is clear AND PRESENT, NOW.

HOWEVER; that does NOT, in terms of the eyes of science that is available around
3500 years ago, to use as reference, negate the clues in the Old T biblical text
that Humans are made FROM clay. There are no 'eyes' big enough to see the dust
of outer-space THEN BUT never the less even Carl Sagan comes to the conclusion that
we are made of STAR STUFF.

THAT'S BIG PICTURE STUFF. The same big picture stuff of looking all around
nature ON EARTH AND SKY AND OCEAN to see all the similar patterns
to know we are all one together as part of this whole big thingy NAMED
as life, animate and inanimate;
and both dirt AND flesh and blood is
required for human life.

That truly doesn't take eyes of science to know in big picture thinking.

To say we come from clay in big picture thinking is the same to say
we come from star stuff with telescopes to aid those human eyes
of then.

Never the less, above so below , inside outside, and
all around applies to philosophy, religion, science,
and even politics, believe that or not.

But it requires far more than detail
small picture thinking
to see THAT big picture.

Poets who write the bible CAN see A BIGGER picture;
but that still leAVES the fundamentalist thinking
systemizing scientists folks then, as 'personality type' too,

scratching their head, calling fowl; when
what underlies their biology
is both fish

and

birds; in other words seeing leaves and no trees.

Truly that is advanced human intelligence;

wHere the details are more or less, just
parts of

trueR FULLER human

intelligence.

To wonder is to live and carry on in joy.

To get stuck in details, is well, from what Einstein
terms as insanity; JUST THAT.

AND from a common sense perspective I can show the lonely boys here
how to meet girls, IF they only learn how to move in grace; as that intelligence
is truly required in non-verbal ways to attract graceful women.

Athletes learn to move gracefully by the requirements of basketball and football
and such as that; and with THAT comes greater non-verbal intelligence, where
humans respond to THAT at rates of 60 to 90 percent, over verbal language.

To walk in a straight line and never raise one's arms up is to become
just another definition of Einstein, and have a really hard time
connecting to the opposite sex; or perhaps the same sex
too; although I am not versed in THAT; I will think that
it does apply though; with BIG PICTURE
THINKING.

ANA, HAS BIG picture thinking; and
yes there is great trial and error
associated with that and failure;
but the successes associated
with big picture thinking
are beyond belief for
detail thinkers
as
HISTORY SHOWS OVER AND OVER FOR TRULY
EVOLVED HUMANS, IN JUST ONE LIFETIME, THROUGH
the kind of positive epigenetics that are the difference
between reproductive success OR NOT; PARTICULARLY
in the world we live in today; where the challenges are
GREATER AND THE WILLINGNESS TO CHANGE TO MEET
THOSE CHALLENGES WITH ADAPTATION ARE REAL REQUIREMENTS
TO SURVIVE over the longest term of existence; that is NOW.

And truly that is both the greatest big picture thinking and the
hardest of most FOLKS to realize that NOW IS ALL THAT EXISTS.

WHEN one lives life in THAT way AWAY from the illusions
of past and present; including Standard IQ ways of
thinking; THAT IS THE FIRST STEP TO TRULY LIVING
FOR NOW in FLESH AND BLOOD ways of life;
rather than just in ABSTRACT CONCEPTS
OF WORDS.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/guess-embryo.html


And here is a song for that where a young lady decides to get married
to the nature of all that is GOD rather than just one young
man
alone...

To actually feel that connection of Oneness with all that is GOD
over and above written words is to NEVER EVER BE ALONE AND

always
be
ALLONE.



With BIG PICTURE THINKING that moves far beyond words alone;

life becomes EXTRA COOL,

ALL THE TIME FOR NOW AS ONE CAN
SEE MUCH FURTHER, THAN SCIENCE ALONE
IN systemizing ways of thinking in written
words, math, and science, alone;

Same as in biblical times;
SAME AS NOW; AS BOTH
ARE
NOW.

The empire is GOD and we all just a part of that
but WHOLE AT THE SAME TIME
THAT IS NOW AND
never ever lonely
when FULLY FEELING
THAT beyond
words as written,

ALONE.

ALLONE IS THE COOLEST WAY OF ALL;

WHERE EMPIRE MEANS ALL.


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03 May 2015, 10:01 am

How would it even make sense for humans to develop limbs that are 'wheels' that would be terribly unpractical, and it would take a lot of energy to get them to go, I imagine it might take a lot of energy to 'spin' muscles fast enough to spin a wheel on a consistent enough basis to travel....I mean keep in mind rollar skates are more mechanical if you actually had wheels on your feet it wouldn't be just like rollar skating you'd probably have to use energy to make the wheels spin to, but not sure how bone/muscle structure could even develop to accommodate wheels. Not to mention what sort of skin would we have to grow to cover them that wouldn't be harmed by scraping on the ground....if the wheels had no skin and where just bone, well not sure bone is hard enough to consistently withstand rolling around on various terrain without breaking/crumbling. I guess I could see how at first glance it might seem like a cool idea....but it really does seem impractical so to me its not a real surprise evolution has not gone that way.

Also there is the bit about terrain not always being wheel friendly....I'd personally hate wheels attached to me, all the falling would get exhausting and painful. I am glad with rollar skates or rollar blades you can take them off when done...it would suck if that was my actual feet.


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03 May 2015, 10:13 am

Oldavid wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Evolution seems to despise the wheel and that's too bad. How strange humans invented what evolution frowned upon.


Firstly evolution does not despise or frown on anything, it is a process not an entity with direction. Secondly as has already been pointed out to you it is not practical on so many levels, constantly coming across areas you cannot cross, the inability to jump or climb away from predators, starving to death or being attacked due to bogging. Yes this happens to bipeds and quadrupeds but just think of how easily a car, even a 4 wheel drive gets stuck compared to someone on foot. Of course if you childishly believe in creation then the creator might have made the earth complete with a system of roads, paths and lanes .......

As to your assertion "How strange humans invented ........." its not strange at all. Once again ANA do a little reading The Wheel and
Quote:
Firstly, "evolution" is purely an invention of egomaniacs. It does not exist anywhere in observable physics, chemistry or biology.

Secondly, predators do not exist without prey.

Con-men do not exist without gullible egotistical miserables to prey on.


Huh...pretty sure evolution isn't even an invention, its more a way of explaining how life on this planet has developed, and it sure makes more sense than 'on the first day god made light', 'on the fifth day god made land/sky whatever the hell and that it was all put into a perfect garden where adam and eve screwed up and got kicked out and somehow birthed the entire human race....oh and according to most artwork they where white with light hair how did that happen? If the first humans originated in Africa and spread across the globe, it would then make sense the first humans may have been a little bit darker. Or does the adam and eve story just fit better with the false idea that the earth is only 6,000 years old because that does not leave enough time for the spreading about of humans and development of different physical traits due to environment.

Also what makes you think its only gullible, egotistical, miserables who are preyed upon by con artists? seems like you have a tendency to place blame on anyone anything bad happens to for somehow deserving it before you even know the details......granted I am sure those sorts of people get conned, but perfectly reasonable, kind, optimists also get conned.


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03 May 2015, 12:35 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Evolution seems to despise the wheel and that's too bad. How strange humans invented what evolution frowned upon.


Evolution doesnt "frown upon" anything. It just doesnt generate wheels on living things. Though we live on a nonliving wheel (or ball baring) in space that orbits another bigger ball baring that is part of a huge flat wheel called the Milky Way Galaxy.

Evolution didnt create ballpoint pens either. I don't see anything "strange" about that.

The American Indian civilizations never evolved the wheel because they didnt have the powerful beasts of burden (horse, oxen, donkeys) that the old world had.

Similarly: nobody in Africa, Asia, nor Europe, ever "put something into a pipe and smoked it" until after Columbus discovered America. Smoking pipes were basic technology all over the pre Columbian Americas for thousands of years. But because the Old World didnt have tobacco nobody in the Old World thought to make smoking pipes. But once tobacco, and pipes, spread to the OW the folks in the OW began adding cannibis, or opium, to their tobacco, or got the notion to smoke those things without tobacco in tobacco pipes.

So (to kill two threads with one stone) Christ probably was not a "pot smoker" in the modern sense. Herodotus (the Greek historian) reported that the Scythians (barbarian horseman beyond the pale of civilization in what is now southern Russia) would pile hemp onto bonfires, and would stand around breathing the fumes. But nobody in the old world prior to 1500 AD ever lit up pipes, or rolled papers, to smoke any kind of plant matter.

Tobacco, and hoofed animals, both drove technology. Ecology set civilizations onto divergent courses.



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03 May 2015, 1:35 pm

Okay so there are examples of rolling into a ball and tumbling away in nature but do keep in mind that is a round sphere and not a TRUE wheel.


I thank you all for contributing to this thread though because it is an interesting subject :D
I really do appreciate when you guys responses because I value your insights and opinions especially on these kinds of subjects. I can't help by be fascinated by such ideas.
Even if I don't agree or you think I am being ridiculous, I do have a genuine interest in it and am truly interested in what people have to say and think about it.

It is true there would be friction involved which generates heat and would burn skin cells but there could be a way around that, maybe some kind of horn-like material would act as the surface of the wheel that regenerated like hair and nails.



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03 May 2015, 1:45 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Evolution seems to despise the wheel and that's too bad. How strange humans invented what evolution frowned upon.


Evolution doesnt "frown upon" anything. It just doesnt generate wheels on living things. Though we live on a nonliving wheel (or ball baring) in space that orbits another bigger ball baring that is part of a huge flat wheel called the Milky Way Galaxy.

Evolution didnt create ballpoint pens either. I don't see anything "strange" about that.

The American Indian civilizations never evolved the wheel because they didnt have the powerful beasts of burden (horse, oxen, donkeys) that the old world had.

Similarly: nobody in Africa, Asia, nor Europe, ever "put something into a pipe and smoked it" until after Columbus discovered America. Smoking pipes were basic technology all over the pre Columbian Americas for thousands of years. But because the Old World didnt have tobacco nobody in the Old World thought to make smoking pipes. But once tobacco, and pipes, spread to the OW the folks in the OW began adding cannibis, or opium, to their tobacco, or got the notion to smoke those things without tobacco in tobacco pipes.

So (to kill two threads with one stone) Christ probably was not a "pot smoker" in the modern sense. Herodotus (the Greek historian) reported that the Scythians (barbarian horseman beyond the pale of civilization in what is now southern Russia) would pile hemp onto bonfires, and would stand around breathing the fumes. But nobody in the old world prior to 1500 AD ever lit up pipes, or rolled papers, to smoke any kind of plant matter.

Tobacco, and hoofed animals, both drove technology. Ecology set civilizations onto divergent courses.


Actually, I do find it strange evolution didn't create ball point pens. It seems like the most practical things were not invented by evolution. It is an odd phenomena. It just seems like the best possible thing to evolve; what's practical.

And I don't want my thread killed because I value these thought processes and have no trepidation about delving into such matters because they are simply fun to think about.

I do appreciate yours and everyone's contributions though because they do help me to think more about it and that is my goal.

It's not a matter of saying, evolution cannot be possible because it didn't invent wheels or ball point pens. It's just a way of looking at the strangeness that is life and kind of being in awe of it. I am not trying to start a war against theory of evolution here, just examining what I find idiosyncratic about life.

It's really interesting when you think about it, we all know what evolution is and we see the outcome all around us, and then we have this other branch called invention and we see the outcome here, too. Seems like the two could be related. Perhaps invention is another dimension of evolution?



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03 May 2015, 4:10 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Firstly, "evolution" is purely an invention of egomaniacs. It does not exist anywhere in observable physics, chemistry or biology.

Yes it does. You have had this explained to you many times. Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution.
It has never been explained by anyone. An endlessly repeated assertion does not constitute an "explanation". Darwin-style "evolution" is scientifically (philosophically, physically, chemically, biologically, mathematically) impossible.

Real evolution is always and only in the direction of entropy. The impenetrable stupidity of egomaniacal clever-dicks is a perfect example. And that is the evolution that makes biological sense.



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03 May 2015, 4:50 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Huh...pretty sure evolution isn't even an invention, its more a way of explaining how life on this planet has developed, and it sure makes more sense than 'on the first day god made light', 'on the fifth day god made land/sky whatever the hell and that it was all put into a perfect garden where adam and eve screwed up and got kicked out and somehow birthed the entire human race....oh and according to most artwork they where white with light hair how did that happen? If the first humans originated in Africa and spread across the globe, it would then make sense the first humans may have been a little bit darker. Or does the adam and eve story just fit better with the false idea that the earth is only 6,000 years old because that does not leave enough time for the spreading about of humans and development of different physical traits due to environment.

Also what makes you think its only gullible, egotistical, miserables who are preyed upon by con artists? seems like you have a tendency to place blame on anyone anything bad happens to for somehow deserving it before you even know the details......granted I am sure those sorts of people get conned, but perfectly reasonable, kind, optimists also get conned.
"Evolution" certainly is an invention. Furthermore it's as impossible an invention as a bicycle without wheels. The Biblical description of events is not a science textbook... simply a statement that the whole caboodle is the product of power, intellect and will that is intelligible to all people of all times except all self-worshiping egomaniacs of all times.

Darwin-style "evolution" is demonstrably scientifically impossible. Creation by an intellect and power with the will to do so is not demonstrably scientifically impossible.

Miserable egomaniacs are gullible simply because they will seize on anything that makes them look good to themselves.