Define "Nice Guy" and define "Alpha Male" please. Really.

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Fnord
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26 May 2015, 6:21 am

314pe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
It's one thing to be liked for being a "Good Person" - this is the basis for being "Friend Zoned", after all - it's quite another to engage in sexual intimacy solely on the basis of being nice.
So a nice guy is a person who expects to be loved by someone simply for being a decent human being and it's horrible. Right?
I think that's about right. Just being 'Decent' seems to fall below the threshold of attractiveness. Mere 'Decency' just does not seem to be interesting enough in a world full of people who are also talented, skillful, and capable of a wider range of emotional expression than just a kind word and a pleasant smile.



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26 May 2015, 11:41 am

No. The first key component of "nice guys" is entitlement. They don't just want attention from womyn for being "nice," they feel entitled to it.

The second key component is that they aren't actually nice; their "niceness" is, like I said, typically the bare minimum of human decency. I once read a long rant by a nice guy in which he complained about womyn being disinterested despite the fact that he wasn't abusive or a rapist. Those were his standards for "niceness": not actually being nice to people, but not being an as*hole.


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Gauldoth
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26 May 2015, 1:37 pm

starkid wrote:
No. The first key component of "nice guys" is entitlement. They don't just want attention from womyn for being "nice," they feel entitled to it.


No, the problem with "Nice Guys" is that they lack the physiological traits men need to attract the women. They use niceness as a way to try to court women because their niceness, whether it's genuine or not, is literally all they have. We should pity these men, not ridicule them.

As for the whole "entitlement" issue, I thinks that's pretty irrelevant. For most men, happiness comes from women. People (both men and women) tend to think they're entitled to the things they need, whether they actually are or not. I mean, you could make a very sound philosophical argument that the starving people in Africa aren't "entitled" to food or help from the outside worrld because it's mostly they're own fault that they're in the situation they are (which it is), but you can't reasonably expect them to stop asking for them, or seeking them out, or getting angry and frustrated if they don't get them, can you?

starkid wrote:
The second key component is that they aren't actually nice; their "niceness" is, like I said, typically the bare minimum of human decency.


Some are, some are not. Again, as I explained before, it's not really relevant. All Nice Guys end the same way; bitter, disillusioned, jaded and alone. Whether their niceness was actually genuine or not doesn't matter.



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26 May 2015, 5:57 pm

Fnord wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
a feminist believes that men and women are equal and deserve to be treated equally. no more. no less.
Just like Communists are those who believe that all people are equal, regardless of ethnicity, political connection, or religious affiliation.

:roll: Some are just "more equal" than others ... [/quote

the belief that all people are equal is egalitarianism.

communism has more to do with who has what. from each according to his abilities. to each according to his need. it sounds great, except no society has been able to make it work.



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26 May 2015, 9:06 pm

Ultimately humans are animals, and attraction is pretty much based on merit. Men love power; women love men who love power.

But it is sad... in an ideal world all that it takes to be loved is virtue, and perhaps the greatest quality to be loved is virtue, because no matter how hard life hits you, no matter how many things go away, the only thing that can't really be taken away from you is a good heart. It really is the greatest qualifier for human affection and I really do wish it were all that it takes, but we don't live in an ideal world, people don't see with their eyes they see with their mouths, this place just festers with vanity and all sorts of animal behavior, it makes me depressed and cynical.

Money goes away, status fades, muscles degenerate, looks disappear, but a good heart is the only thing you can really keep.

It's just too bad most human beings can't see that.



Gauldoth
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27 May 2015, 12:16 am

Klowglas wrote:
Ultimately humans are animals, and attraction is pretty much based on merit. Men love power; women love men who love power.

But it is sad... in an ideal world all that it takes to be loved is virtue, and perhaps the greatest quality to be loved is virtue, because no matter how hard life hits you, no matter how many things go away, the only thing that can't really be taken away from you is a good heart. It really is the greatest qualifier for human affection and I really do wish it were all that it takes, but we don't live in an ideal world, people don't see with their eyes they see with their mouths, this place just festers with vanity and all sorts of animal behavior, it makes me depressed and cynical.

Money goes away, status fades, muscles degenerate, looks disappear, but a good heart is the only thing you can really keep.

It's just too bad most human beings can't see that.


Most men don't "love" power, they love women. They just try to get power because they know it'll get them women, because are the ones who do love power.

Also, you'd be surprised how quickly a person can "lose" a good heart. People who lack all those other things you mentioned in your last paragraph can, and most likely will, lose theirs remarkably quick.



Klowglas
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27 May 2015, 12:46 am

Gauldoth wrote:
Klowglas wrote:
Ultimately humans are animals, and attraction is pretty much based on merit. Men love power; women love men who love power.

But it is sad... in an ideal world all that it takes to be loved is virtue, and perhaps the greatest quality to be loved is virtue, because no matter how hard life hits you, no matter how many things go away, the only thing that can't really be taken away from you is a good heart. It really is the greatest qualifier for human affection and I really do wish it were all that it takes, but we don't live in an ideal world, people don't see with their eyes they see with their mouths, this place just festers with vanity and all sorts of animal behavior, it makes me depressed and cynical.

Money goes away, status fades, muscles degenerate, looks disappear, but a good heart is the only thing you can really keep.

It's just too bad most human beings can't see that.


Most men don't "love" power, they love women. They just try to get power because they know it'll get them women, because are the ones who do love power.

Also, you'd be surprised how quickly a person can "lose" a good heart. People who lack all those other things you mentioned in your last paragraph can, and most likely will, lose theirs remarkably quick.


Well men are still prideful before they're lustful -- women are just one facet of this whole domination power play, nothing gratifies an egocentric male more than pushing people around as if they were mere objects or toys.

Women validate men who love power through the sex they give them, and this issue keeps compounding to the point where the man becomes a base animal.

The issue gets even worse because it's the male who loves power who gets more chances at reproducing, and that sort of nature is then passed down through generations. People are then raised by bastard and/or absentee fathers, and then society is injured even further.

But that is most of humanity...which why the world is as messed up as it is, men that don't feel validated will act out, they will join gangs because the gangs validate them through the influence they hold in their community, and it's why men join things like ISIS which promise them the world.

Humanities error is in pride -- women validate that through the sex that they give to the prideful, both of these become simple animals in perpetuating that error. A women does essentially what an animals does when it yields to a superior suitor, and the man does what the animals do when he vanquishes an inferior male -- his reward is sex.



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27 May 2015, 5:23 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Chronos wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
aspiemike wrote:
sly279 wrote:
aspiemike wrote:
I'll answer this when I am not out singing karaoke with a meet up. This caught my attention. However, I would like to throw another term in there for anyone if it is ok with you Olive Oil Mom:

White Knight (my opinion is that they are worse than nice guys).


why are people who defend women bad?


The white knight definition as I have seen it described (and witnessed among some) are that they will be quick to defend women, but seem to believe they are owed something for it later. They are more likely to think of themselves as "God's gift to women"



That's why male feminists are not much liked by feminists.

Feminists even suspect the guys who call themselves egalitarian.


Define feminist.


A person who supports feminism, duh.

Do you think I am a retard who doesn't know what it means?


I said to define it because there exists multiple definitions of the word today, and people need to be clear on which definition they are using so as to avoid confusion.

Your rudeness is not warranted.



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01 Jun 2015, 11:59 am

rdos wrote:
Gauldoth wrote:
A "Nice Guy" is a man who lacks the physiological traits men traditionally need to attract women, so instead they try to do so by being caring, thoughtful and good natured. You know, all the things women SAY men want. Whether or not this is just a facade or whether or not they're actually caring, thoughtful and good-natured is irrelevant as far as the definition of "Nice Guy" goes. After his attempts to attract women through these traits inevitably fail, the Nice Guy will invariably become bitter, disillusioned and jaded. And then feminists, along with the rest of society, will jump on him saying he was a never a "truly" a nice guy to begin, which may or may not be true. Again, it's not really relevant. The Nice Guy will still get shat on regardless of whether his niceness was a facade or not.


Excellent summation. I think this is how it mostly works. Except it doesn't need to be because of lacking physiological traits, it can just as well be the lack of aggressiveness and assertiveness that males in general use to contact women.


Wouldn't it be extremely dangerous for a neurodiverse male to try to be assertive (let alone aggressive) unless they are damn sure they can emulate the relevant neurotypical behaviors? Good way to get in trouble for harassment. Going after neurotypical women is not a good idea.


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01 Jun 2015, 6:08 pm

"Nice Guy", as described in Game Theory, is a male who gives his resources, time, attention and his sense of self-esteem over to women in the hopes of getting laid. A nice guy will act as her servant and emotional tampon. He will sit there listening to her whine about her boyfriend for hours, hoping she will notice he's perfect for her. The nice guy suffers from a severe case of one-it-is. That "She's the one".

Nice guy in common parlance means a courteous male with a generally pleasant demeanour. Is associated with chivalry.
Which in turn is defined as acting as if everyday women are royalty.

"An alpha male" is simply a man that meets women's standards of male sexual attractiveness. Understand that the "Alpha/Beta male dichotomy is not a real phenomenon, it is a means by which women use to pigeonhole and classify men as either a sexually exciting-type (Alpha) or a stable provider-type (Beta). An alpha is not a leader. He is a conformist who's self esteem is entirely dependent on female approval, just like the beta. The only difference is that he succeeds at gaining said approval for a time at least.

The Pick up artists use such terms as alpha and beta due to observing female classifying of men. They are woman-centric (gynocentric ideas).

Men ought not to care about being seen as alpha or beta. Just be yourself. I would never try to be "alpha" as I will never let a woman dictate my place in society or worth. You are not "alpha or beta or omega". Or any of that woman-centric nonsense. You are a MAN.



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02 Jun 2015, 1:35 am

Most of the responses here are just so... depressing. Such cynicism I have rarely come across. My own view is that the labels 'nice guy' and 'alpha male', like so many other labels that we seem to delight in giving both ourselves and others for ease of reference, are based largely upon lazy assumptions, generalisations and an unwillingness to consider outliers (like us 'Aspies', which is another label many take a little too seriously in my not so humble opinion).

Anyway, and speaking for myself, if I am nice to someone I am so because it is the decent thing to be, and not because I have some kind of ulterior motive(s) for being so. I don't expect payment from someone when I open the door for them. I don't expect anything else from them either, and no "AnnoyingKid", 'Game Theory' does not explain true and selfless altruism. Yes, it does exist out there, even if so many these days don't actually know anything about it (like those who seem to believe that it can be reduced to terms that one often finds within the field of 'evolutionary psychology', which would have to rank as being one of the most odious of currently popular pseudo-sciences).



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02 Jun 2015, 2:09 am

AnnoyingKid wrote:
"Nice Guy", as described in Game Theory, is a male who gives his resources, time, attention and his sense of self-esteem over to women in the hopes of getting laid. A nice guy will act as her servant and emotional tampon. He will sit there listening to her whine about her boyfriend for hours, hoping she will notice he's perfect for her. The nice guy suffers from a severe case of one-it-is. That "She's the one".

Nice guy in common parlance means a courteous male with a generally pleasant demeanour. Is associated with chivalry.
Which in turn is defined as acting as if everyday women are royalty.

"An alpha male" is simply a man that meets women's standards of male sexual attractiveness. Understand that the "Alpha/Beta male dichotomy is not a real phenomenon, it is a means by which women use to pigeonhole and classify men as either a sexually exciting-type (Alpha) or a stable provider-type (Beta). An alpha is not a leader. He is a conformist who's self esteem is entirely dependent on female approval, just like the beta. The only difference is that he succeeds at gaining said approval for a time at least.

The Pick up artists use such terms as alpha and beta due to observing female classifying of men. They are woman-centric (gynocentric ideas).

Men ought not to care about being seen as alpha or beta. Just be yourself. I would never try to be "alpha" as I will never let a woman dictate my place in society or worth. You are not "alpha or beta or omega". Or any of that woman-centric nonsense. You are a MAN.


You are right, women often classify men between sexually exciting-type and not sexually exciting-type .... even if they don't use the alpha and beta terms - they may revert to other terms like hot or beau or whatever, what they do it more than guys is that they evaluate each other's dates, and speak up whether he's on approved list or not.

You just have to be observant of any group of women talking about men and dates to find out this to be very true.



Gauldoth
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02 Jun 2015, 2:34 am

Lintar wrote:
Most of the responses here are just so... depressing. Such cynicism I have rarely come across.


Is it really that surprising though? Most Aspies are rationalists. It's quite difficult to be a rationalist in today's society and not become a cynic.



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02 Jun 2015, 6:53 am

Lintar wrote:
Most of the responses here are just so... depressing. Such cynicism I have rarely come across. My own view is that the labels 'nice guy' and 'alpha male', like so many other labels that we seem to delight in giving both ourselves and others for ease of reference, are based largely upon lazy assumptions, generalisations and an unwillingness to consider outliers (like us 'Aspies', which is another label many take a little too seriously in my not so humble opinion).

Anyway, and speaking for myself, if I am nice to someone I am so because it is the decent thing to be, and not because I have some kind of ulterior motive(s) for being so. I don't expect payment from someone when I open the door for them. I don't expect anything else from them either, and no "AnnoyingKid", 'Game Theory' does not explain true and selfless altruism. Yes, it does exist out there, even if so many these days don't actually know anything about it (like those who seem to believe that it can be reduced to terms that one often finds within the field of 'evolutionary psychology', which would have to rank as being one of the most odious of currently popular pseudo-sciences).


^ This.


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02 Jun 2015, 7:04 am

Typical alpha males, aka douchebags:

Image