God doesn't seem to exist!

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Oldavid
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09 Jul 2015, 4:11 pm

Fugu wrote:

Oldavid wrote:

Fugu wrote:

Oldavid wrote:

They must consider me a threat to an indefensible ideology, eh?

more like a aimless waffler who constantly retreads the same arguments without accepting refutations of said arguments.

A glib contrary assertion does not constitute a "refutation".

Religious bigotry is most irksome to a modest man, particularly if the bigot is an undisguised egomaniac.

I do not apologise for failing to be intimidated by specious sophistry. Some of us autistic types are not much impressed by irrational fads... no matter how popular they might be.

whatever, hide behind big words if you like, you're still just wandering in conversational circles which is why you get posts removed

Ah well! One never knows. There may be some rational lurker viewing who can understand English.

Fugu
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09 Jul 2015, 5:24 pm

Oldavid wrote:

Fugu wrote:

Oldavid wrote:

Fugu wrote:

Oldavid wrote:

They must consider me a threat to an indefensible ideology, eh?

more like a aimless waffler who constantly retreads the same arguments without accepting refutations of said arguments.

whatever, hide behind big words if you like, you're still just wandering in conversational circles which is why you get posts removed

Ah well! One never knows. There may be some rational lurker viewing who can understand English.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for someone who thinks your arguments are valid.

Lintar
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09 Jul 2015, 8:28 pm

In spite of all the friction and heat that is being generated here, I have yet to see any good reason, from anyone really and not just Fugu, for why I should simply dismiss the concept of God out of hand, the way the vast majority of internet atheists actually do.

"God doesn't seem to exist" is the title of this thread, and it makes one wonder what would be required in order to eliminate the uncertainty here, because the incessant demand for "proof" that atheists like to raise completely overlooks the rather obvious fact that there actually is no proof that would ever convince them they are wrong. The same can be said of dedicated Christian theists. Neither side really cares about evidence, only that which reinforces what they already believe to be true, so I often wonder why such closed-minded people even engage in debates like this. Is it simply point-scoring? The chance to act like a jerk whilst remaining anonymous?

I always enter discussions like this because I (vainly?) hope that I will actually come across an argument that will compel me to reconsider some current belief of mine, but all I ever seem to see are the kind of arguments I wouldn't have accepted when I was twelve years old. I try to be as clear and concise as possible, and explain my position and the reasons for it, but I may as well be doing this - :wall:

Lintar
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09 Jul 2015, 8:33 pm

Fugu wrote:

Oldavid wrote:

Fugu wrote:

Oldavid wrote:

Fugu wrote:

Oldavid wrote:

They must consider me a threat to an indefensible ideology, eh?

more like a aimless waffler who constantly retreads the same arguments without accepting refutations of said arguments.

whatever, hide behind big words if you like, you're still just wandering in conversational circles which is why you get posts removed

Ah well! One never knows. There may be some rational lurker viewing who can understand English.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for someone who thinks your arguments are valid.

Fugu, your arguments aren't valid either. I wouldn't even call them 'arguments' in the first place, they are so bad.

DailyPoutine1
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09 Jul 2015, 8:47 pm

Lintar wrote:

DailyPoutine1 wrote:

I agree with the title. All we can say is our world exists. Christians saying that "god created everything" are delusioning. They miss this point: What created "god"? Therefore, we must assume is that things exist because they do. Laws of the universe apply to everything. If something was created by something else, this thing must exist, wich creates an endless paradox.

Well, I'm glad someone else is here. I was getting a bit too frustrated with Fugu, he just doesn't understand what theologians and philosophers even mean by the term "God". He thinks it's a spaghetti-monster or something. He is out of his depth.

As for the question, "What created God?", the simple answer to this is that nothing did, because nothing could have. If you are going to speculate about what created God, you then have to ask "What created that which created God?", and before you know it you are on the downward spiral of infinite regression. God, in order to even qualify as such, must be the necessary and self-explanatory source of all there is. That, like omnipotence, is an aspect of what God is.

I was implying there can't be a "god".

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Lintar
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09 Jul 2015, 8:51 pm

DailyPoutine1 wrote:

I was implying there can't be a "god".

Why not? Explain your reasons for this belief.

Ban-Dodger
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09 Jul 2015, 9:54 pm

Man, this so-called debate is full of pointless, considering that there's no actual consensus as to the actual definition of what would constitute (a) God. Were it to be defined as some invisible man in the sky who watches over everyone and everything at all times and is everywhere, then that would be a creepy stalker looking up-skirt at the ladies every time they go to do anything private, and I would have to concur that such a "God" does not exist by such definition.

Now if God were being referenced under some other definition, such as some sort of regulation-system that monitors all activities in the universe like some sort of gigantic hyper-quantum computer, a kind of highly developed artificial-intelligence if you may, perhaps such to the point that it had the technology to be able to power up some source of energy to the point of causing a material-universe to manifest, kind of like it decided to program this physical-universe into existence, then I might not necessarily be so quick to dismiss such a notion, but were I to accept such a crazy idea as possible, the question then begs...:

Why did we chose to exist in this server/universe/game rather than picking a better game to play over living our earth-lives ?

Feel free to ignore it as a rhetorical-question or take a stab at answering it or adding to my Crazy Conspiracy-Theories.

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Lintar
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09 Jul 2015, 10:01 pm

Ban-Dodger wrote:

Well, the characters that appear in a computer game themselves have no choice in the matter, so I would have to say that if this reality is merely a simulation then we also had no choice but to play along.

Yes, I agree - this "debate" really has become pointless. It's clearly getting nowhere, so in spite of the fact that I will no doubt be tempted to rejoin it after "Fugu" or some other atheist has made a comment, I'll try to resist this urge and stay away.

Fugu
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09 Jul 2015, 11:45 pm

Lintar wrote:

sadly there's nothing to be done about Ban-Dodger :/ he's admitted to believing doublethink as a literal worldview. there's no value to engage with him because of that.

Oldavid
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10 Jul 2015, 2:16 am

Fugu wrote:

Lintar wrote:

sadly there's nothing to be done about Ban-Dodger :/ he's admitted to believing doublethink as a literal worldview. there's no value to engage with him because of that.

Maybe he has a mind. That would put him out of your league.

By-the-way I'm really pissed off because another of my carefully prepared posts has been vanished by "Big Brother".

Ban-Dodger
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10 Jul 2015, 9:24 am

Hehe, man, some of these forumers, they actually take it literally when I « have admitted » that I am a « Fringe-Lunatic Crazy-Ass Insane Tin-Foil-Hat-Wearing Nut-Case Cuckoo Loco-en-la-Cabeza Conspiracy-Theorist ! »™ :lol:

Fugu wrote:

Lintar wrote:

sadly there's nothing to be done about Ban-Dodger :/ he's admitted to believing doublethink as a literal worldview. there's no value to engage with him because of that.

Unlike some people around here, I actually DO qualify as an Agnostic-Pantheistic-ish Zetetic-style Skeptic, whilst also having plenty of reason to regard many of those who call themselves skeptics as actually being pseudo-skeptics (due to the fact that they ironically exhibit the same kind of fundamentalist-religious behaviour for which they purport to be against ! :lol:

).

Now for some quotes/summaries in the style of Dr. Dean Radin but quoted from Dr. Gary Schwartz on the matter...

Yeah, for SCIENCE, baby...! :lol:

Oldavid
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12 Jul 2015, 8:41 am

Ban-Dodger wrote:

Fugu wrote:

Lintar wrote:

sadly there's nothing to be done about Ban-Dodger :/ he's admitted to believing doublethink as a literal worldview. there's no value to engage with him because of that.

).

Now for some quotes/summaries in the style of Dr. Dean Radin but quoted from Dr. Gary Schwartz on the matter...
Yeah, for SCIENCE, baby...! :lol:

I'm only sceptical about some things. There are many things I know quite well and for sure.

A true sceptic, according to the above definition(s) would almost be a nutter with a non-functional mind. For example: I know for sure that I exist and to say that I would waste my time by being "open" to some crank pretending to "prove" that I didn't would be quite as blindly stupid as the agnostic maxim "the only thing you can know is that you can't know anything".

If observation and logic are not tools for knowing things you might as well tell your children that you can't know what will happen to them if they get run down by a fleet of speeding busses because you're skeptical about the evidence of previous instances of people being flattened by busses.

I suggest that it is completely unreasonable to imagine that a coordinated, consistent and widespread effort to supress, ignore or ridicule easily observed facts is not the result of a conspiracy of some kind.

Oldavid
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12 Jul 2015, 9:03 am

DailyPoutine1 wrote:

Lintar wrote:

DailyPoutine1 wrote:

I was implying there can't be a "god".

As does the thread title and its protagonists.

You might be a clever young man so I will indulge you with a few things that (I hope) may keep you awake at night thinking.

It goes like this:
A self-contradictory assertion is absurd and impossible in fact. A certain premise is one where the only alternative is its contrary and which is self-contradictory. For example: "I exist". And "A thing that does not exist cannot cause itself to exist".

An effect cannot be greater than its cause because to be so there would be something in the effect that came from nowhere... i.e. caused itself before it existed.

That makes an infinite regression of causes impossible. If each preceding cause is greater than its effect (which may be the cause of some subsequent effect) an infinite regression of causes will inevitably go back to an infinite cause. An infinite cause will not need an infinite series of cause/effects to cause anything...

So then, young Mr deep fried potato chips with cheese and gravy, that's a start. You might also need to think about things that change. Anything that is changeable cannot be eternal because it never is what it was (or will become) and it needs an agent to cause the change.

Phew! That's enough for now. I hope you will be back with some intelligent observations and/or questions.

Good luck to you, young fella.

cathylynn
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13 Jul 2015, 1:27 am

i would be happy to be convinced of the existence of god or an afterlife.

Ban-Dodger
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13 Jul 2015, 3:16 am

What if our earth-lives are our after-lives that we're in right now ?
Perhaps we just don't remember who we were after we died & find ourselves living human-lives ?

cathylynn wrote:

i would be happy to be convinced of the existence of god or an afterlife.

What if it is the after-life that exists whilst God™ does not ?
Then again this whole existence of ours was probably created by aliens... :wink:

Oldavid
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13 Jul 2015, 10:32 am

cathylynn wrote:

i would be happy to be convinced of the existence of god or an afterlife.

Look and think carefully. I'll give you some leads if you're serious.

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