No work experience

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xenocity, you paint a very grim picture.

This seems to go against the whole point of internships. Aren't they meant to be a way to get experience for folks who don't already have experience? I thought employers would be quite happy to get free labour. To require you to have two years experience before you can even start an internship seems like a catch-22 for both workers and employers (they'll never get any new workers this way). Some of the places I've worked at took a different view. They used college grad recruitment programs because they wanted to expand their staff.

If you need two years experience before starting an unpaid internship, will those two years also have been unpaid internships? It reminds me of what they said on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart a few years ago. About how employers are abusing the system, keeping workers as unpaid interns for years and years because, in Jon Stewards words, "they think they don't need to pay their workers".

Maybe if there are more workers than positions or if they can use cheap foreign labour than they don't need to worry about how high their domestic recruitment rate is. This could lead to other forms of abuse such as downsizing then requiring the same rate of productivity from a smaller staff (for the same salary, of course). That's what this article is about. According to this video, workers can't be exploited in the free market because if they're overworked/underpaid some other employer will offer better wages and conditions and then the first employer will be left without any workers. I feel this takes an overly optimistic view of the so called free market because the market has more workers than jobs then the workers have to compromise, not the employers. It could even lead to a positive feedback loop. If employers downsize their staff while still expecting the same combined workload from them, workers will comply because they fear unemployment, yet having a smaller staff and longer hours will lead to higher unemployment which will cause existing workers to fear for them jobs even more which will make them willing to work even longer hours which will lead to even higher rates of unemployment and so on.

This can apply not only to salaried professionals but also to wage-earners. For example, I've heard stories about cooks who spend hours chopping vegetables before they go on the clock because "that's not real work" or hotel maids who spend hours folding towels before they go on the clock because "that's not real work". The same cooks and maids would also have daily quotas that were impossibly high, the only way to meet them within their assigned work hours was to clock off at night, then continue working, so it would appear to employers that they're completing their quotas within their assigned hours. For salaried workers, they may just have a list of tasks to complete, rather than set hours but this to do list may quickly grow until it takes up all their waking hours.

Anyway, if the tycoons make the population poor, how can they expect to be able to sell anything to them? e.g. if Apple increases unemployment in America by manufacturing iPhones in China, won't that mean less Americans can afford iPhones? It's not as though the Foxconn workers can afford them anyway so this will decrease the size of Apple's market. Same secnario for other companies. Don't they think if they cause economic ruin it will decimate their own customer base? Or do they have a plan to make money on the ride down to economic crisis as well?
/tangentIt sounds like a paradox if the "entry level job" requires you to not be higher than entry level. Doesn't "entry level" mean you're just entering into that career? Is the 3-5+ years of experience inclusive of the time it takes you get your degree or is the whole 3-5+ years post graduation?This really confuses me. So it's a necessity for you to have a working class job for one or two years yet you get chastised for it? Do they expect you to get an industry job five minutes after graduation? If it took you one or two years to find industry work and you didn't work retail or fast-food in that time they might take an equally dim view that you were unemployed for that time. They might consider it a sign of laziness or say that you were "refusing to work" when you were unable to find work.

This reminds me of an anecdote I read once. A 30 year old graduate goes to a job interview. The interviewer looks over her CV and says that she has a four year employment gap from 26 to 30. He asks why she has this gap. She says it was because she was doing her degree in that time. The interviewer asks how she was able to support herself without working and she said her husband supported her. The interviewer says the fact that she wasn't willing to work while doing her degree is a sign of laziness.Very true but do college degrees fully prepare you for the job? Does a software engineering degree teach you everything you need to know to get that job? Does a law degree teach you everything you need to know to be a layer? Does a business degree teach you everything you need to know to run a business, etc?And yet if you try to get your first industry job when you're 30 - 35, will they say you're too old?That's unfortunate but I think through serendipitously discovered a means to escape the catch-22. Instead of doing a degree then trying to find a job in IT, I got a job in IT first and then began studying.

I don't have a a degree or qualifications of any sort. I needed a job and I discovered that you don't need qualifications or experience to get a job in as a software tester. It's a very entry level job but it's a start. I interned with them for $17 per hour and then got a permanent job with them at $28 per hour. I realize $28 per hour is less than what the devteam gets paid but it's a start.

Once I got a permanent position I began a diploma of software development. I opted to work 5.5 hours per day so I'd have more time to study. Since I'm working part time, I still get welfare payments, though at a 40% rate compared to when I was unemployed. This gives me approx $41,000 wage plus $11,000 in welfare per year to pay my way through college. I think this is a good plan so I won't be impoverished like some college students. How can they work their way through college if their summers are spent on unpaid internships instead of summer jobs? I should be able to pay as I go and graduate with zero debt.

But the really good part of my plan is that, I'm employed by one organization and contracted to another organization, this means I'm in contact with two groups (one a major corporation and the other a large government organization, both have sizable IT departments). They say it's not what you know but who you know, my plan is to have many contacts by the time I graduate. I've already had some early interest from one of the governmental devteam managers. Wouldn't she prefer to hire someone she already knows than a stranger? If after graduation I want to work on the corporate devteam, they told me since I'm already on their staff I would not have to apply for a job but rather apply for transfer to the devteam.

Anyway, this plan I've devised could be a good way for aspiring youths to break into IT while avoiding the common pitfalls of graduating without experience and being unable to find industry work.

@RetroGamer87

It had been slowly going this way since the mid 1990s and the financial crisis of 2008 and the recession it caused sped up the movement towards unpaid internships.

It's no big secret that companies regularly abuse the internship definition, in order to save money.
In most parts of the country there is a glut of experienced and educated people between 20-40, who were in their careers are were laid off or lost their job due to outsourcing, downsizing, company going out of business etc.. during the past 8 years, that they were willing to compete with college and high school students for these internships.
Add a slow shaky recovery that we are in to the mix, the job market hasn't rebounded to pre 2008 levels yet.
This is due to companies being very conservative with hiring, due to the lack of economic activity on the consumer end.
Consumers on the other hand, haven't come roaring back with spending due to them facing employment insecurity.

Companies have been hell bent on cutting costs to the extreme to appease their shareholders by cutting the payrolls to the bare minimum in many cases.

The company who you are interviewing with has the right to determine what they perceive as "real" and/or "necessary".
It is literally an employers market right now!
Hell I've seen postings for internships asking for masters or higher.

As for abusing the internship abuse, the number of lawsuits and EEOC filings are on the rise from interns who are out right fighting them. Though if you do sue for they find out you filed the complaint with the EEOC and Department of Labor, you will probably be blacklisted in the industry and not get hired as a result (not legal, but the proof is on the person).


Yes right now young people in many countries including the U.S., are in the catch-22!
They cannot get the necessary experience, because you don't have the experience to get the job.
Hell young people are still competing in many areas for low end jobs with their older counterparts and losing out.
McDonald's would rather hire a 40+ year old instead of teen or 20 something, because the 40+ year old will stay at the job longer if not permanently. Fast Food and retail are hell bent on reducing turn over.
Entry level is supposed to be entry level, but again with the glut of unemployed people across the board and companies not willing to take risks on unproven people it creates the paradox.
In my experience (including reading the job postings) 3-5+ of actual work experience on top of the necessary degrees.

-- As for college---

As for college it depends on your degree, school, and professors.
It's literally the luck of the draw in many cases.

Since February of 2012, my history of job and internship searching, I have found that many if not most places ask for skills you haven't learned anywhere and don't want to train you.

Like I've said in other threads, General Motors IT told me in the interview that they were only looking to hire people who could hit the ground running with no training for the job. But General Motors requires you to go to an 8 week course to learn GM history and culture!

I applied at another small company which hit me up for the job as eLearning Developer. I would have been very good at the job cause it in my wheel house. But they told me, they were holding out for the PERFECT person, who knew their version of the softwares used and could do the job without training or adjustment.
WHY THE HELL DID YOU BOTHER TO HIT ME UP AFTER READING MY LINKEDIN PROFILE AND RESUME!
(it still irks me).

This how nearly all of my interviews have gone...!

I also went to an interview where the recruiter loved me, even though I explained it was damn near impossible to get the enterprise software experience while being a college student and working on a internship (the software is made by SAP, Oracle, some by Microsoft and analytics made by IBM) due to the sensitivity of the software to the business. Most people will never gain access to the software and only the use what is needed for their jobs. Oh it is also expensive to get ahold of that many medium sized companies and practically all small business never use any of it.

--As for your experience--

It is very hard to get an IT job without the degree and sometimes the certifications, unless you know someone who is willing to get you the job.

In nearly all cases you need the degree and possibly certifications first just to be considered.

In my dad's most recent case General Motors offered him an IT/engineering position in middle position (above standard employees but below high management). When they found out he didn't complete college they withdrew the offer and told him it was due to the lack of the degree, despite my dad's 25+ years doing that type of job and software.

Most industries require you to:
A) be in related college program to get an internship
B) and graduate with said degree to be eligible for the entry level job.

It's IT, Marketing (all kinds), Accounting/Finance, Business, Engineering, etc...

As I've said, the U.S. and most developed economies are stuck in paradox, that is slowing the recovery.
Businesses won't ramp up spending and hiring until consumers start spending at normal levels again.
Consumers won't spend at normal levels again until businesses start ramping up hiring and raising wages.

It should get better in the coming years, though it doesn't rectify the problem now!

-- As for your Example--

Apple is not a good example.
Most of Apple's work force is employed directly in U.S., be at their campus in Cupertino CA, retail, or building their computers. Hell even those building the glass for their devices and sensors are employed in the U.S.
Apple by the end of 2016 will have all of its computers made in the U.S.
Apple has talked about moving all of its products back to the U.S. for manufacturing and assembling.
Apple employs more Americans than all the other hardware makers in the PC and cell phone industries.

Though right now Foxconn has the contract to build iPhones and iPads.
They also build Xboxs, PS4s, Nintendo products, most of the Android phones, etc...

Samsung, the biggest Android maker by far, is a better example.
Samsung has been busted in China and South Korea for essentially using the college internship system for unpaid labor.
Not to mention the horrible working conditions and long shifts.

I hope some of the tech jobs that went to other countries can come back to america.
I remember one company that moved tech support to india, then moved it back to america.