How to survive school, the real truth..

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nick007
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10 Jun 2015, 5:47 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well usually at school if someone who is getting bullied defends them-self they get in trouble much more than the bullies
I got suspended in 6th grade because a bully told the teacher I grabbed his crotch when we were fighting & the principle strongly recommended that my dad get my psychological help because bullies also told them I played with my penis in church which I did NOT do. Because of that I developed an OCD fear of getting erections in public due to getting accused of doing things I was not.


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spiritnja
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11 Jun 2015, 5:11 am

I'd fight back either way, but yeah it has a higher chance of working if you're at least able to cause them a substantial enough amount of pain, to where they'd just rather not mess with you next time to begin with, and not get satisfaction from just tossing you around. Thats why learning a hardcore martial art can really help.



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11 Jun 2015, 5:14 am

iammaz wrote:
spiritnja wrote:
iammaz wrote:

Question: has the proliferation of guns in the USA served to reduce crime / gun crime?
e.g. Give all kids guns and all that will do is serve to make the bullies more deadly / violent to start with.


Yes, it has been shown that cities where concealed or open carry is legal have less crime than cities where its not..


Compared to the rest of the countries with much tighter gun laws? Or compared to other american cities?


Compared to other American cities with much tighter gun laws like Chicago, and some other countries like the UK. I don't have the statistics right now but I remember seeing it. And if you factor in smaller populations in other European countries for example, a much more socialized welfare state, and a month of vacation a year compared to two weeks in the U.S., these factors also might contribute to reduced crime in general, heh.



MudoMan
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11 Jun 2015, 11:17 am

nick007 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well usually at school if someone who is getting bullied defends them-self they get in trouble much more than the bullies
I got suspended in 6th grade because a bully told the teacher I grabbed his crotch when we were fighting & the principle strongly recommended that my dad get my psychological help because bullies also told them I played with my penis in church which I did NOT do. Because of that I developed an OCD fear of getting erections in public due to getting accused of doing things I was not.


Hahaha I dont mean to laugh but that just was funny. but it is also very sad and disturbing how low down and dirty bullies can get. What aholes. I am sorry you had to deal with that and I hope you do not have that fear anymore.



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11 Jun 2015, 11:18 am

spiritnja wrote:
I'd fight back either way, but yeah it has a higher chance of working if you're at least able to cause them a substantial enough amount of pain, to where they'd just rather not mess with you next time to begin with, and not get satisfaction from just tossing you around. Thats why learning a hardcore martial art can really help.


heck yeah dude and a lot of martial arts styles in their basic techniques are pretty hardcore. The key is finding an instructor who teaches you the self defense and basic fighting instead of stupid show off emos and sport sparring.



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11 Jun 2015, 11:25 am

Misery wrote:
domanite wrote:
spiritnja wrote:
Bullies usually go for the weaker target, therefore even if someone stands up to them and gets their asses beat, they'd still think twice before trying to mess with them next time..this is a fact.

Is this based on personal experience? I don't have a lot of personal experience with bullies, but I always assumed that "stand up to a bully and they'll go away" was just something from books and movies. It intuitively makes more sense to me that a guy who likes to fight, would love to repeatedly fight with someone weaker who was willing to engage them.


Pretty much. I've seen this happen. I used the "stand there and glare" tactic to keep idiots off of me, as well as careful manipulation. I never got into truly bad situations, and despite the fact that not even once did I show any physical prowess... right down to utterly refusing to partake in sports and such in gym class (or do much of anything more than walk), none of the bullies there were bloody stupid enough to try anything physical on me. So I'd only get ANNOYING situations, but nothing worse than that though. A friend of mine though... he tried to use the "fight back!!!11" idea that some think is such a good move. Guess what DIDNT help? That. The bullies dont get scared off. They get SATISFACTION. Someone they perceive as weak is responding to them in EXACTLY the way they want. And this never ends well. When they can simply use physical ANYTHING to take down someone fighting them, they get a stronger feeling of superiority. Not only did this person APPEAR weak to them, but in losing any sort of confrontation, they PROVE (to the bully) that the bully is the superior one indeed. This is the only real result of this sort of thing I ever witnessed, as there were plenty that tended to try to "stand up for themselves". There's a difference between standing up for yourself, and standing up for yourself like a damn fool. If a bully is starting a confrontation, simply "knowing how to fight" isnt going to stop them.... because chances are, THEY already know how themselves.

Not to mention that, again, I've always thought that someone that has to resort to violence to solve a situation is someone that's run out of ideas. I'd rather come up with more interesting and useful solutions, thanks.



You seem pretty self righteous in your hate for what you call "senseless violence." You actually offer NO SOLUTION to anyone dealing with bullies at all....and your judgment of people who fight back is completely backward.

You offer a few examples of your friends. Well that was THEIR situation and many situations are different. You are also wrong to assume people who are weak can NEVER learn to be stronger or tougher and eventually beat someone and stop them from bullying.



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11 Jun 2015, 1:38 pm

spiritnja wrote:
Oh, wow, well here in America they do the opposite, they verbally and sometimes physically abuse those kids mercilessly, and ostracize them. This is not an environment for learning, I might've been a fucken genius by now because I was a pretty smart kid back then, but school felt much more like a prison than anything else.

Sub in Canada for America and this is one of my posts. What was worse is that when I would point out we were in a prison-like environment (even prisoners are allowed to use the washroom!), they would look at me like *I* was the crazy one.

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You SHOULD defend yourself, you SHOULD stand up for yourself, you SHOULD fight back when attacked if you can. Purposely not doing this makes you an eternal victim an will destroy you.

Sad but true. They said the same thing on 9/11 (to just stand back and not stoop to their level) and look what happened. Bullies cannot be reasoned with, bargained with, are sadistic and in most cases are full blown sociopaths. They will eat you alive if you don't fight back because they don't care and NOBODY is going to defend you.

There is a reason most Police, even in 'civilized' areas carry guns.



nick007
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11 Jun 2015, 1:45 pm

MudoMan wrote:
nick007 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well usually at school if someone who is getting bullied defends them-self they get in trouble much more than the bullies
I got suspended in 6th grade because a bully told the teacher I grabbed his crotch when we were fighting & the principle strongly recommended that my dad get my psychological help because bullies also told them I played with my penis in church which I did NOT do. Because of that I developed an OCD fear of getting erections in public due to getting accused of doing things I was not.


Hahaha I dont mean to laugh but that just was funny. but it is also very sad and disturbing how low down and dirty bullies can get. What aholes. I am sorry you had to deal with that and I hope you do not have that fear anymore.
I don't really have that fear anymore. It wasn't completely bad thou because after that my parents transferred me to a school for dyslexia which I had been diagnosed with sense kindergarten & that school was aLOT better for me.


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But I don't want to go among mad people, Alice remarked.
Oh, you can't help that, said the Cat: we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
How do you know I'm mad? said Alice.
You must be, said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.


starfox
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11 Jun 2015, 2:01 pm

That's true but I didn't know that till years later because we are taught to ignore bullying and tell a teacher. I thought when I was younger that if adults said that then it's correct and then bullying stops but it'seems FALSE! It's very damaging that wrong information. If I had been taught I should stand up for myself then I would.


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12 Jun 2015, 1:00 am

MudoMan wrote:
Misery wrote:
domanite wrote:
spiritnja wrote:
Bullies usually go for the weaker target, therefore even if someone stands up to them and gets their asses beat, they'd still think twice before trying to mess with them next time..this is a fact.

Is this based on personal experience? I don't have a lot of personal experience with bullies, but I always assumed that "stand up to a bully and they'll go away" was just something from books and movies. It intuitively makes more sense to me that a guy who likes to fight, would love to repeatedly fight with someone weaker who was willing to engage them.


Pretty much. I've seen this happen. I used the "stand there and glare" tactic to keep idiots off of me, as well as careful manipulation. I never got into truly bad situations, and despite the fact that not even once did I show any physical prowess... right down to utterly refusing to partake in sports and such in gym class (or do much of anything more than walk), none of the bullies there were bloody stupid enough to try anything physical on me. So I'd only get ANNOYING situations, but nothing worse than that though. A friend of mine though... he tried to use the "fight back!!!11" idea that some think is such a good move. Guess what DIDNT help? That. The bullies dont get scared off. They get SATISFACTION. Someone they perceive as weak is responding to them in EXACTLY the way they want. And this never ends well. When they can simply use physical ANYTHING to take down someone fighting them, they get a stronger feeling of superiority. Not only did this person APPEAR weak to them, but in losing any sort of confrontation, they PROVE (to the bully) that the bully is the superior one indeed. This is the only real result of this sort of thing I ever witnessed, as there were plenty that tended to try to "stand up for themselves". There's a difference between standing up for yourself, and standing up for yourself like a damn fool. If a bully is starting a confrontation, simply "knowing how to fight" isnt going to stop them.... because chances are, THEY already know how themselves.

Not to mention that, again, I've always thought that someone that has to resort to violence to solve a situation is someone that's run out of ideas. I'd rather come up with more interesting and useful solutions, thanks.



You seem pretty self righteous in your hate for what you call "senseless violence." You actually offer NO SOLUTION to anyone dealing with bullies at all....and your judgment of people who fight back is completely backward.

You offer a few examples of your friends. Well that was THEIR situation and many situations are different. You are also wrong to assume people who are weak can NEVER learn to be stronger or tougher and eventually beat someone and stop them from bullying.



True, I could offer direct solutions; typically, this isnt my way of handling things; this is hard of course since every situation involves so many different variables, so it's better for me to explain in detail examples of things that I've used/done to accomplish this. But YOU assume that getting stronger and clobbering them wont come back to bite you in the ass. I never said that people "couldnt get stronger". What I said was that this OFTEN DOESNT WORK. In fact, it can actually make it DRAMATICALLY WORSE. Particularly since, you also assume that these bullies are operating ALONE. I'm sorry, but that's often not how it goes. You may be stronger than one of them. But if you beat one up... are you stronger than the 5 others that will now converge on you at once? I'll answer for you: No. A one-on-five fight is dumb. Even if you are strong, the COMBINED strength of multiple others is almost always DRAMATICALLY higher than yours. Why allow the situation to become such a possibility? And that's just ONE reason why it's a bad idea.

My examples for this would be solutions such as manipulating the situation to YOUR advantage. Every situation is different, and it's up to the individual involved to figure out just how to do this. Bullies are typically dumber than a sack of hammers. There's ALWAYS a way around them in a rigid setting such as a school. One way or another, when you're at school, you're SURROUNDED by authority figures. They're everywhere. Like ants. This is Useful Thing Number One. Learn how to involve those people in a given situation; a bully might think they're oh so strong and untouchable, but they can be outright smashed by something like suspension due to violence (and THAT right there is reason number 1 to NOT use violence yourself; or YOU might be smashed by it). Which tends to bring upon them a host of other issues; much of which aint going away anytime soon. All those authority figures are useful resources in keeping things under control. But they're not perfect. Many times they genuinely dont notice what's going on; they have so much to keep track of already! Dealing with them DIRECTLY is important. And if THAT doesnt work... or at least doesnt work quickly or easily enough... that's where manipulation comes into play. Even something as simple as controlling your position in the school VS the position of a bully (as in, physical position) can put the bully in a vice grip of control; where YOU have the power, and THEY do not.

One thing I did a bunch of times was pretty simple; when I noticed one of the nastier ones headed my way, clearly up to no good (or clearly up to stupid, as I usually put it) my response was very, very simple: go to certain places, and simply stand there. Places like, say... right in front of the principal's office. Or near the teacher's break room. Or in an area of the school that you know is watched more carefully than others (in my school, this was typically the library; many things to steal, you see). This EXTREMELY simple act of control put those idiots at a massive disadvantage. It accomplished numerous things. #1, if they actually were damn stupid enough to try anything, I was *right there*, directly next to a place where I could get IMMEDIATE intervention. #2. If the faculty wondered WHY I was there (particularly if I was there at the sort of time where I shouldnt be), particularly if I had to do this often, a detailed (and careful) explanation of this tended to rectify the situation. Suddenly, the teachers/faculty, put into a position where there was no excuse to NOT do the job of controlling such a situation would typically have to respond in some useful way to this (if they didnt, it'd be trouble for them; after all, the situation is occurring RIGHT next to where they are operating from all the time. I made sure to know who to go to if one of them DIDNT do their job. Fortunately, I only had to do that bit once). And there are many teachers that genuinely care, but again, have sooooo much to keep track of that things need to be REALLY obvious for them to catch it. This position made it obvious. #3 was a... psychological effect? Not sure if that's the right term. Bullies often use to their advantage the fact that, for reasons I dont give a damn about, people have this tendancy to not want to go to others for help. They find it embarrassing. But they quickly found that I was the sort that'd say "Screw that. I'm fixing this RIGHT THE HELL NOW", and they learned that I absolutely, definitely WOULD get help if needed, and due to the nature of punishments like suspensions, it presented the very real possibility of them getting ruined by doing something that'd get me to respond like that. Suddenly, they couldnt be such brazen idiots around me. Particularly when that bit was combined with the part where I always considered carefully my position in the building. I never got into such a situation where I COULDNT go get help, and even if I had... the fact that I'd been dealing with the teachers in all of these ways meant that they got to know me, and understood some of the problems I faced. It didnt take long before the faculty was pretty much on MY side and knew what to look for. And if someone tried something on me in a situation where I couldnt do anything about it... one way or another, there was evidence of it somewhere, and one way or another, my word against that of the bully would... pull a hell of alot more weight. But I never allowed that to happen anyway, though I did have to help a couple of other people a few times. The same advantage worked there.


And that's just ONE example of a technique to deal with them. There's TONS of ways to do it, and the thing is, using control instead of violence tends to have a stronger psychological effect in an overall sense. It says "You're challenging ME? I dont even need to sink to your pathetic level to deal with you easily. I dont even NEED to attack you physically, because *I* am in control. Get away from me, or I'll wreck you without lifting a finger, you useless oaf". All you have to do is THINK instead of swing your fists. This also causes the situation where YOU can respond to the damn stupid things the bully is doing.... without getting in any trouble yourself. Attack them (even in response to THEM starting it) and YOU can get in just as big of trouble as they will. Not the brightest move. IN ADDITION, if you are stronger than them, and beat the crap out of them without them being able to do much.... guess who the evidence is now pointing towards? YOU now appear to be the aggressor in the situation. Even less of a bright move. That last bit of course depends on who on the faculty responds to the situation, but... why set it up so that that sort of risk is a possibility?


I could go into all sorts of examples in even more extreme detail than I used here. Like I said, I dealt with bullies constantly. New ones would come out of the woodwork all the time. So many different forms of control were implemented over the years. I'm not going to go into those examples though, because it'd take bloody forever, and really, the point isnt to directly give very specific ways of doing it; the point of the example was simply to show that yes, this sort of method IS possible.... you just have to use your brain to find the resources around you that can create a solution, and then figure out how to manipulate them. My own methods were all COMPLETELY non-verbal. I didnt speak a word to any of the bullies. Not for any specific reason; it's just part of my personality to automatically do things this way. Others may have different strengths and such, and may be able to use verbal skills, if they have them, to use different methods of obtaining control. Again, there's a zillion ways to do it.

You just have to THINK first.

EDIT: And that's really all I'm going to say about it... I think I've gone over everything I could want to say here, so from this point on, even if a direct response is made, I'll probably just observe the topic instead of say anything. Unfortunately, I dont do well with debates. I have a VERY short fuse and what could be described as a dark personality (in that I'm *really* negative all the time, and my default mood isnt exactly a pleasant one), so it can just lead to anger flares. Anger flares that'd be really damn stupid. Nobody here needs that. It's one reason why I'll usually make a hyper-long response in a situation like this: Get it all out NOW, and there's then no reason to constantly stick around and get all fired up.



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12 Jun 2015, 1:40 am

MudoMan wrote:
I agree with the orignal poster above, but I disagree with the 2 people who replied.

First of all let's keep religion out of this. This has nothing to do with religion. Seems like atheists blame religion for every freaking thing that have a problem with even if it has nothing to do with religion. It is like their superstition. "Oh something bad happened??! It must have been the religion monster!!"

Anyway, I believe kids should be tought to be strong, toughen u, work hard, stand up for themselves, learn how to fight for self defense only, taught right from wrong. taught to stand up for the weak and morality and other things kids lack today.

For me I was bullied all the time and never had any real friends. Yet I also stood up for myself. I believe martial arts helped me in my life and I recommend studying a martial art to give you strength and self control.

This is not about beating people up and hurting them worse, it is simply to have self respect and some honor and to not let people defeat you. So many bullies and other jerks in the world try to take people like us out. While life is painful we need to be strong enough to endure it. This would save a lot of people from suicide as well as keep peoples anger and hate under control so they dont shoot up a building or murder someone.


But if everyone were raised this way there wouldn't be any weak to stand up for....since there's no room for anyone who is unable to simply toughen up when the going gets tough. Also what about when you're singled out? I mean sure one on one it might be rather simple to tell some jerk off if they're trying to bully or be mean. But what if its you're whole class....how is one child supposed to just stand up to their whole class? I mean sure they can try with everyone laughing at them as they struggle to find the right words to even say anything. I guess the point is there are always going to be those who for whatever reason aren't able to stand up to for them-self, or beat up/maim their aggressor so they stop messing with them or just 'toughen up'....so the initial OP doesn't really explain how to address that. Though kids being taught to help those who are weaker/or struggling with something they don't as much....kind of addresses it since then they'd be wiling to help those people rather than bully them. Also though if someones really developed terrible self esteem and even mental health issues its going to take some time and healing before they are going to be able to do much of what was mentioned in the OP.

I didn't experience much physical bullying...mostly verbal stuff, and sure I tried to stand up for myself, but being autistic and all and struggling with social interaction to begin with letting alone high stress 'ahh people are ganging up on me' social situations' it was hard to come up with anything good to say...usually just ended up getting laughed at and insulted more, till maybe I did get really mad...then of course who would get in trouble? me...not the kids bullying me to my breaking point...day after day. Now some school years where better than others, but the worse ones have scarred me and those have not all healed even to this day. Also there is the issue of not having a lot of the capacity to understand all the games people play, and little social nuisances people pick up on...I had plenty of those revelations of 'they only pretended to be nice to use me or hurt my feelings' like my first school dance, I mean sure nowadays I understand a bit more of that stuff and wouldn't fall for that kind of crap as easy at least I hope not. I guess my point is it can be a long process repairing your self esteem and even getting to a place you can really be comfortable in yourself and stand up for yourself effectively...or at least have a solid way of dealing with peoples crap that works for you. 'kids should be taught to be strong' doesn't really help all the kids who might already be suffering mental problems and what not...and really aren't able to fight off all the bullies or come up with quick smart come-backs.



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13 Jun 2015, 6:37 am

Misery, you said yourself you didn't have much experience with bullies, right? Are any of your thoughts based on real-world experience?..Standing up to bullies and fighting back, even if theres a group of them, you just focus on one, the one who messed with you and put the pressure on him. Or just f**k him up and the rest won't do anything. You assume a person can't get stronger or tougher as well like other's said. You can weigh 120lbs and still do massive amounts of damage to somebody with your body if you know how to do it. I've read accounts of people being attacked on the street and fighting off multiple attackers with some very vicious close-combat moves. Standing up and fighting back has a VERY good success rate actually, for getting somebody to leave you alone..society as a whole has conditioned us against this, but that very same society uses the threat of violence to get what it wants in the form of police, etc. too.



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13 Jun 2015, 6:55 am

I suppose if you have to fight of a bully them go for their eyes. Even if they are a lot bigger or stronger they should stop. I did a self defence course and it taught me how to get someone to let go if they grab you and get outhe a headlock. I also learnt that some of the techniquws that's supposed to cause pain don't work on me. So its good for me lol.


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14 Jun 2015, 2:10 am

Here is a self-defense system that you can use thats probably the best I've found. It was made by Tim Larkin, who was in Navy special-warfare intelligence and did SEAL's training before he got a diving accident and was disqualified. He re-wrote their manual on hand-to-hand combat. This is something that anyone can use no matter their size or ability, it focuses on the weak areas of the body that everyone has, and delivering maximum damage to them. Proper 'self-defense' is a bit of a misnomer, since in this case a good offense is actually the best defense. This isn't a system to be messing around, it's more of a system that will teach you how to kill somebody with you bare-hands within 5 seconds..This one should only be used for defensive purposes only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9pTfW6e8D8



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14 Jun 2015, 2:14 am

At the same time, using social-violence as defense in a situation that is more like the kind in a prison, or school..which have some similarities actually, it can be appropriate to use it to maintain social-order for yourself, because you can't just get away from these people and have to be around them. A peaceful solution should try to be gone for whenever possible, but if a kid in school is being bullied for example, and they don't have the best verbal skills or comebacks, and end up getting messed with or humiliated..then if it came to a choice of whether that kid was on the verge of suicide, or for him to hit his bully in the face first to stop it, then I'd take the second option any day of the fucken week..



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16 Jun 2015, 5:41 am

And MudoMan, I've agreed with pretty much everything you posted here, you really get it. These civilians, you gotta be a mothafuckin soldiah to survive. To thrive and not have any problems with 'aspergers' anymore, if you wanted..I could've been just as much of some ADHD, bipolar, aspergers wreck as the psychiatric industry wants to label you as. That doesn't make it true..