What makes a woman?
09 Jun 2015, 2:52 pm
Magneto,
Actually, it's pretty well established that the brain is very sensitive to its environment and that discrimination can affect the brain; here, sleep is affected:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25770043
In an earlier post in this thread, I listed the ways that women are routinely discriminated against.
Even if there are differences in the brain, it doesn't follow that feeling like a woman means you have the brain in question.
_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
09 Jun 2015, 3:46 pm
Elinor Burkett, the author of the piece in the OP, is interviewed on The Brian Lehrer Show:
http://www.wnyc.org/story/feminist-ques ... standards/
_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
09 Jun 2015, 5:41 pm
I thought this comment from Barbara Sciacca was good:
Quote:
I, too, come to this forum with some trepidation. I have never been totally able to wrap my head around this subject. Several years ago, I attended a meeting of women-born-women, with one transgendered woman. During its course, there was a bit of arguing, but just a bit. I noticed that the transgendered woman began to raise her voice slightly, and began to speak loudly, and authoritatively. The women gradually lowered their voices. I couldn't forget this, and couldn't exactly put my finger on why I felt this was not a good thing. I think I can place it now. When one has grown to maturity as a man, there is a difference in how he has learned to behave, (the male privilege thing). When this happened, I censored myself and felt like I was not in the safety of a female conversation. And I resented it. I have had much more exposure in recent years, but I notice this, not infrequently. I still don't like it.
I think many trans women are oblivious to this dynamic. I remember, too, reading a group of female posters talking about how such a dynamic was likely in place in that case where the pre-op trans woman used the women's locker room at a gym. The women get quiet and apprehensive as they detect the grown man among them. The trans woman interprets that as everything being fine, oblivious to the anxiety that is spreading among the women in the locker room.
_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
btbnnyr
Veteran
Joined: 18 May 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,359
Location: Lost Angleles Carmen Santiago
10 Jun 2015, 9:35 am
Cesar wrote:
Aristophanes
No sex, no women, no men. Artificial inseminetion implies someone's discharge of semen from the male reproductory tract, achieved through normal regular masturbation.
No sex, no women, no men. Artificial inseminetion implies someone's discharge of semen from the male reproductory tract, achieved through normal regular masturbation.
Yeah, but the act of sex isn't necessary for reproduction anymore. You need sperm and egg, how you physically merge them is a moot point now. So to base gender on old reproductive rules makes no sense. Point being, if someone wants to change gender identity to something else I see no problem with it since this isn't the Neolithic, we actually have technology that bypasses the need for sex as a means of procreation. Under your definition if a man has a vasectomy he's no longer a man since he doesn't ejaculate sperm, same with a female that gets her tubes tied-- if they're no longer male and female, then what are they?
10 Jun 2015, 11:19 am
Aristophanes,
If you want a new human being of any gender you have to rely on male & female cells and there are many ways for them to reach each other. Heterosexual copulation is one of these ways which is well-tried and worldwide available. If you want to make a woman or a man using, by any reason, an alternative method of insemination just do it.
10 Jun 2015, 12:27 pm
Cesar wrote:
Aristophanes,
If you want a new human being of any gender you have to rely on male & female cells and there are many ways for them to reach each other. Heterosexual copulation is one of these ways which is well-tried and worldwide available. If you want to make a woman or a man using, by any reason, an alternative method of insemination just do it.
If you want a new human being of any gender you have to rely on male & female cells and there are many ways for them to reach each other. Heterosexual copulation is one of these ways which is well-tried and worldwide available. If you want to make a woman or a man using, by any reason, an alternative method of insemination just do it.
Sexual reproduction doesn't require the act of sex anymore, determining gender on sexual organs alone is outdated thinking. You're right, physical sex is the easiest way to reproduce, but it's not the only way and if it's not the only way then the definition of reproduction and related aspects (gender) have to include the alternatives. Of course one could just not think about the alternatives and the effect they have but that's just being in denial and burying one's head in the sand.
And again: define a hermaphrodite under your male/female dichotomy-- it can't be done.
10 Jun 2015, 1:59 pm
Aristophanes wrote:
Cesar wrote:
Aristophanes,
If you want a new human being of any gender you have to rely on male & female cells and there are many ways for them to reach each other. Heterosexual copulation is one of these ways which is well-tried and worldwide available. If you want to make a woman or a man using, by any reason, an alternative method of insemination just do it.
If you want a new human being of any gender you have to rely on male & female cells and there are many ways for them to reach each other. Heterosexual copulation is one of these ways which is well-tried and worldwide available. If you want to make a woman or a man using, by any reason, an alternative method of insemination just do it.
Sexual reproduction doesn't require the act of sex anymore, determining gender on sexual organs alone is outdated thinking. You're right, physical sex is the easiest way to reproduce, but it's not the only way and if it's not the only way then the definition of reproduction and related aspects (gender) have to include the alternatives. Of course one could just not think about the alternatives and the effect they have but that's just being in denial and burying one's head in the sand.
And again: define a hermaphrodite under your male/female dichotomy-- it can't be done.
This discussion is focused on transgender people, who overwhelmingly fit one sex or the other, not intersex people.
Also, physical sex is still important because 1.) Women are still able to get pregnant, even if the pregnancy is unwanted; 2.) Women tend to be physically weaker than men and so remain vulnerable to sexual assault and rape by men; 3.) Society treats men and women differently based on sex, with discrimination falling on the shoulders of women; and 4.) All reproductive methods require contributions from a male and female each and implantation in a female reproductive system.
_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
10 Jun 2015, 2:43 pm
beneficii wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Cesar wrote:
Aristophanes,
If you want a new human being of any gender you have to rely on male & female cells and there are many ways for them to reach each other. Heterosexual copulation is one of these ways which is well-tried and worldwide available. If you want to make a woman or a man using, by any reason, an alternative method of insemination just do it.
If you want a new human being of any gender you have to rely on male & female cells and there are many ways for them to reach each other. Heterosexual copulation is one of these ways which is well-tried and worldwide available. If you want to make a woman or a man using, by any reason, an alternative method of insemination just do it.
Sexual reproduction doesn't require the act of sex anymore, determining gender on sexual organs alone is outdated thinking. You're right, physical sex is the easiest way to reproduce, but it's not the only way and if it's not the only way then the definition of reproduction and related aspects (gender) have to include the alternatives. Of course one could just not think about the alternatives and the effect they have but that's just being in denial and burying one's head in the sand.
And again: define a hermaphrodite under your male/female dichotomy-- it can't be done.
This discussion is focused on transgender people, who overwhelmingly fit one sex or the other, not intersex people.
Also, physical sex is still important because 1.) Women are still able to get pregnant, even if the pregnancy is unwanted; 2.) Women tend to be physically weaker than men and so remain vulnerable to sexual assault and rape by men; 3.) Society treats men and women differently based on sex, with discrimination falling on the shoulders of women; and 4.) All reproductive methods require contributions from a male and female each and implantation in a female reproductive system.
1. birth control makes this point moot.
2. that's what a gun, mace, etc. is for.
3. true on the first point, but false on the second-- in matriarchal societies the discrimination falls on the shoulders of men.
4. for sexually reproducing organisms yes, but procreation in nature is not so rigid-- there are sex changing species, non-sexually reproducing organisms, etc.
My point is that hard line dichotomies of sexuality are merely a fantasy, there's a whole range of sexual behavior, sexual physical states, etc. It's not an A or B scenario, there's a spectrum of variance.
10 Jun 2015, 3:02 pm
Aristophanes wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Cesar wrote:
Aristophanes,
If you want a new human being of any gender you have to rely on male & female cells and there are many ways for them to reach each other. Heterosexual copulation is one of these ways which is well-tried and worldwide available. If you want to make a woman or a man using, by any reason, an alternative method of insemination just do it.
If you want a new human being of any gender you have to rely on male & female cells and there are many ways for them to reach each other. Heterosexual copulation is one of these ways which is well-tried and worldwide available. If you want to make a woman or a man using, by any reason, an alternative method of insemination just do it.
Sexual reproduction doesn't require the act of sex anymore, determining gender on sexual organs alone is outdated thinking. You're right, physical sex is the easiest way to reproduce, but it's not the only way and if it's not the only way then the definition of reproduction and related aspects (gender) have to include the alternatives. Of course one could just not think about the alternatives and the effect they have but that's just being in denial and burying one's head in the sand.
And again: define a hermaphrodite under your male/female dichotomy-- it can't be done.
This discussion is focused on transgender people, who overwhelmingly fit one sex or the other, not intersex people.
Also, physical sex is still important because 1.) Women are still able to get pregnant, even if the pregnancy is unwanted; 2.) Women tend to be physically weaker than men and so remain vulnerable to sexual assault and rape by men; 3.) Society treats men and women differently based on sex, with discrimination falling on the shoulders of women; and 4.) All reproductive methods require contributions from a male and female each and implantation in a female reproductive system.
1. birth control makes this point moot.
2. that's what a gun, mace, etc. is for.
3. true on the first point, but false on the second-- in matriarchal societies the discrimination falls on the shoulders of men.
4. for sexually reproducing organisms yes, but procreation in nature is not so rigid-- there are sex changing species, non-sexually reproducing organisms, etc.
My point is that hard line dichotomies of sexuality are merely a fantasy, there's a whole range of sexual behavior, sexual physical states, etc. It's not an A or B scenario, there's a spectrum of variance.
Actually, you're wrong on birth control, rape, and discrimination, and all of that. This reads as a pretty flippant dismissal of actual women's issues, like an attempt to just say something to immediately dismiss them so that one doesn't have to think about it.
_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
10 Jun 2015, 5:04 pm
beneficii wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Cesar wrote:
Aristophanes,
If you want a new human being of any gender you have to rely on male & female cells and there are many ways for them to reach each other. Heterosexual copulation is one of these ways which is well-tried and worldwide available. If you want to make a woman or a man using, by any reason, an alternative method of insemination just do it.
If you want a new human being of any gender you have to rely on male & female cells and there are many ways for them to reach each other. Heterosexual copulation is one of these ways which is well-tried and worldwide available. If you want to make a woman or a man using, by any reason, an alternative method of insemination just do it.
Sexual reproduction doesn't require the act of sex anymore, determining gender on sexual organs alone is outdated thinking. You're right, physical sex is the easiest way to reproduce, but it's not the only way and if it's not the only way then the definition of reproduction and related aspects (gender) have to include the alternatives. Of course one could just not think about the alternatives and the effect they have but that's just being in denial and burying one's head in the sand.
And again: define a hermaphrodite under your male/female dichotomy-- it can't be done.
This discussion is focused on transgender people, who overwhelmingly fit one sex or the other, not intersex people.
Also, physical sex is still important because 1.) Women are still able to get pregnant, even if the pregnancy is unwanted; 2.) Women tend to be physically weaker than men and so remain vulnerable to sexual assault and rape by men; 3.) Society treats men and women differently based on sex, with discrimination falling on the shoulders of women; and 4.) All reproductive methods require contributions from a male and female each and implantation in a female reproductive system.
1. birth control makes this point moot.
2. that's what a gun, mace, etc. is for.
3. true on the first point, but false on the second-- in matriarchal societies the discrimination falls on the shoulders of men.
4. for sexually reproducing organisms yes, but procreation in nature is not so rigid-- there are sex changing species, non-sexually reproducing organisms, etc.
My point is that hard line dichotomies of sexuality are merely a fantasy, there's a whole range of sexual behavior, sexual physical states, etc. It's not an A or B scenario, there's a spectrum of variance.
Actually, you're wrong on birth control, rape, and discrimination, and all of that. This reads as a pretty flippant dismissal of actual women's issues, like an attempt to just say something to immediately dismiss them so that one doesn't have to think about it.
Actually I've had 34 years to think about these issues and the response to them. I also have a minor in gender studies, so I've done a good amount of research on them as well. If you're worried about discrimination specifically which is what all the points you mention allude to, well hate to tell you this but LGBT people face a veritable s**t ton more discrimination than the female sex faces. When was the last time you heard of a female in a western country being strung up to a fence and literally crucified merely for being female?
I actually believe in female rights and that there needs to be more done to equalize the disparity between the sexes and how they're treated-- but I'm not going to toss a whole subgroup under the bus to do so, a subgroup that has it far worse than the average western female.
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