Does everyone with ASD have theory of mind issues?

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traven
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15 Jun 2015, 3:35 am

I find it a very doubtfull theory, or the way to test or apply maybe more, I'm not the only one, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ariane-zu ... 94706.html
I understood that most people can't seperate details from bigger picture & this is certainly a trick question about getting confused about the relevance of input, but hèhè, who am I, i'm certainly at the wrong side of wrong planet, too.



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15 Jun 2015, 11:00 am

olympiadis wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
I don't think it'd be a case of substituting information about the desires of others for my own grasp of the world, it'd be a case of adding information to what I already know.


I think that once that new information was added, then the tools of manipulation would be in place.


But surely, knowing what they want would also allow me to take steps to make it harder for them to get it, if that's what I decided to do?

Not that I think what you're saying is without merit. As I thought further about the way we get the blame for this context-blindness thing rather than the people who (e.g.) authorise "don't walk" signs, I realised that it could justifiably be seen as the oppression of the minority by the majority.



olympiadis
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15 Jun 2015, 1:14 pm

Joe90 wrote:
So NTs have this ToM, where apparently it means they are aware of other's mental states. Yet most people don't even understand depression, anxiety, ASDs, and lots of other mental disorders that can affect a person's mental state.
This always confuses me.


Exactly!
The TOM only works with other NTs who share the same hive-mind.



starfox
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15 Jun 2015, 3:51 pm

olympiadis wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
So NTs have this ToM, where apparently it means they are aware of other's mental states. Yet most people don't even understand depression, anxiety, ASDs, and lots of other mental disorders that can affect a person's mental state.
This always confuses me.


Exactly!
The TOM only works with other NTs who share the same hive-mind.


I think that too :!:


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Eloa
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15 Jun 2015, 6:15 pm

Post on Autism Discussion Page from Bill Nason:

Quote:
Reading the mental states of others!

Many children on the spectrum are so literal, that they rarely “think” about how other’s are thinking or feeling. They do not look past the spoken words to read the perspectives and intentions of those speaking the words. What they see and hear is all there is. They often do not consider what other people are thinking and feeling.

To effectively relate with others, we have to look past the spoken words and “think” about how others are “thinking.” Next, based on this appraisal we (1) predict what the person will do, and (2) pattern how we will respond. Ongoing interaction consist of continually “thinking” about how the other is “thinking”, predicting his behavior and then patterning our behavior based on this assessment. This ongoing appraising is essential for staying coordinated with others in interaction.

Since children on the spectrum do not “think” about how others are thinking (or are weak at doing so) they are not using this information add meaning to what others are saying and doing. They are reacting to what others do literally (say and do), rather than appraising, predicting, and projecting on what “will happen” in the interaction


But he writes only about autistic children.
Quote:
(2) pattern how we will respond.

I have stored some patterns of communication (explicit patterns concerning some type of communication referring to special people like family, but also special topics, where family says I always talk about the same or ask the same, I detacted some patterns I repeat), but predicting
Quote:
(2) pattern how we will respond.
is almost not possible to me, except if the encounter stays in my stored pattern, but it hardly does, in general I find people unpredictable, all sorts of communication, some stay more in pattern than others, but only for the moment being, like a "surprise" to me, not for the moment after.


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olympiadis
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15 Jun 2015, 9:47 pm

Eloa wrote:
Post on Autism Discussion Page from Bill Nason:

Quote:
Reading the mental states of others!

Many children on the spectrum are so literal, that they rarely “think” about how other’s are thinking or feeling. They do not look past the spoken words to read the perspectives and intentions of those speaking the words. What they see and hear is all there is. They often do not consider what other people are thinking and feeling.

To effectively relate with others, we have to look past the spoken words and “think” about how others are “thinking.” Next, based on this appraisal we (1) predict what the person will do, and (2) pattern how we will respond. Ongoing interaction consist of continually “thinking” about how the other is “thinking”, predicting his behavior and then patterning our behavior based on this assessment. This ongoing appraising is essential for staying coordinated with others in interaction.

Since children on the spectrum do not “think” about how others are thinking (or are weak at doing so) they are not using this information add meaning to what others are saying and doing. They are reacting to what others do literally (say and do), rather than appraising, predicting, and projecting on what “will happen” in the interaction



It's difficult not to use explicatives here, but my completely unqualified opinion is that this is garbage, and written from a very constricted perspective. But then again, maybe I just can't understand it.

My view is that we do often think about what other people may be thinking, but we just are not using the same software set as the other people, so it rarely matches.
This goes back to there being a shared hive-mind, of which many people here claim does not exist.

To think about what others are thinking in the same way that they are, then you must share the same software (memes).
Basically, these memes must be absorbed subliminally from your social environment, into the subconscious where they are incorporated into the identity.

Otherwise, simply thinking about what someone else may be thinking will not get you to arrive at the same results as that other person. We run into this situation all the time when there is cross-cultural communication, but we don't automatically claim the other person has TOM issues.



traven
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16 Jun 2015, 6:44 am

olympiadis wrote:
It's difficult not to use explicatives here, but my completely unqualified opinion is that this is garbage, and written from a very constricted perspective. But then again, maybe I just can't understand it.


:D :D
I (imho) don't think children naturally seek to think what others might think, wait, maybe it refers to the narrowed-mind-education that makes 5 year-old kids say to others they're playing "girls"or "boys" toys, thinking about marrying some play-mate because (s)he's of the opposite gender, or judging others who attend not the same (religiousbased) school.
Nurture.



traven
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16 Jun 2015, 6:59 am

Had found that even when a baby in a buggy makes eye-contact and you do some face and eye-jokes with them, usually mother or also a grandmother rush in to stop this curiousity to the world and strangers by putting their face right in front of the little one.
Weird, I didn't know that, not even with my own childs, used to let them explore what they wanted.
But the WAY is narrow the world, to your face and dadagoogoo!
I've checked this with some other people, who saw the same thing happening.



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16 Jun 2015, 8:48 am

olympiadis wrote:
My view is that we do often think about what other people may be thinking, but we just are not using the same software set as the other people, so it rarely matches.
This goes back to there being a shared hive-mind, of which many people here claim does not exist.

To think about what others are thinking in the same way that they are, then you must share the same software (memes).
Basically, these memes must be absorbed subliminally from your social environment, into the subconscious where they are incorporated into the identity.

Otherwise, simply thinking about what someone else may be thinking will not get you to arrive at the same results as that other person. We run into this situation all the time when there is cross-cultural communication, but we don't automatically claim the other person has TOM issues.


Exactly! That´s what I´ve been thinking lately, but Dianthus explains it better :)


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olympiadis
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20 Jun 2015, 11:15 pm

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