Should The Conferdate Flag Be Banned Entirely?

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Should The Confederate Flag Be Banned Entirely?
Yes, because it is a symbol of racism. 35%  35%  [ 9 ]
No, because it is a symbol of Southern pride. 35%  35%  [ 9 ]
Does it matter? It will put back up regardless of what the people think. 31%  31%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 26

Dillogic
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23 Jun 2015, 10:47 pm

I still don't see the big deal.

The Stars and Stripes are worst if you use oppression, bigotry, and violence as your yardstick.

Hell, the US went to war and killed far more people than the CSA ever did back in 2003 with Iraq, and for arguably worst reasons (they got banned weapons!). So, you can't really use "the US has changed" as an argument.



blauSamstag
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23 Jun 2015, 10:54 pm

Well yeah, I'm currently having an argument with a friend on facebook about how when people desecrate the US flag i either figure they are trying to provoke a reaction or they are just a dumbass, but when people fly the confederate flag and try to argue that it has anything to do with anything other than slavery, they are either lying or full of crap.

Our country does things I can't be proud of. I imagine that this is a common sentiment among all major political stripes, though some may deny it in public. We have done regrettable things. We have even done horrible things.

But when palestinian teenagers burn an american flag they are protesting a country that doesn't exist, because they don't know who or what we are or what re really believe. They have only swallowed the line of BS that their politicians fed them, and they are acting on it. I feel sorry for them because it will be harder for them to accept peace in the future. If they get the chance.

When people in america desecrate the flag they are just trying to provoke a reaction, and i decline to be provoked. I understand that they have complaints - valid and invalid, but all the same to them, complaints. Their provocative act is at worst a distraction.

And our soldiers take an oath to protect the constitution, not the flag. Dying for a flag is pretty stupid, imho. Compared to the constitution anyway.

As far as the confederate flag is concerned, this is what the vice president of the confederacy said:

Quote:
The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.



Dillogic
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23 Jun 2015, 11:21 pm

Quote:
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.


Which was pretty much the opinion of Lincoln, other than the slavery part.

I bet the CSA would eventually come to accept equal rights for all just the same if they "won", just like Lincoln and the Union had to (slavery, notwithstanding. Thinking and treating someone as lesser to you, without enslaving them, isn't really "better"). The US totally messed up Iraq without enslaving them.



blauSamstag
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23 Jun 2015, 11:28 pm

Dillogic wrote:
Quote:
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.


Which was pretty much the opinion of Lincoln, other than the slavery part.

I bet the CSA would eventually come to accept equal rights for all just the same if they "won", just like Lincoln and the Union had to (slavery, notwithstanding. Thinking and treating someone as lesser to you, without enslaving them, isn't really "better"). The US totally messed up Iraq without enslaving them.


Don't we do that now with undocumented hispanic immigrants?



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24 Jun 2015, 1:34 am

AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
So Clinton played on the sentiments of his constituents. But how does that compare to his actions?

Pandering is now a virtue?


His actions speak louder than his words.


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Campin_Cat
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24 Jun 2015, 6:19 am

Recently Wal-Mart, eBay, Amazon, Sears, among others, have removed the sale of confederate flags, from their websites / stores. One of them (Amazon or eBay----I can't remember which) reported that in the days just before their removal, sales of the flags jumped 9 THOUSAND percent! Just as others have said: you ban something, and that just makes people want it, even more.









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AntDog
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24 Jun 2015, 9:30 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
Recently Wal-Mart, eBay, Amazon, Sears, among others, have removed the sale of confederate flags, from their websites / stores. One of them (Amazon or eBay----I can't remember which) reported that in the days just before their removal, sales of the flags jumped 9 THOUSAND percent! Just as others have said: you ban something, and that just makes people want it, even more.

BUDK is probably having a surge in sales. :roll:



AspieUtah
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24 Jun 2015, 10:57 am

Infowars.com wrote:
In the wake of the Charleston shooting, and subsequent pictures of the shooter posing with a Confederate flag, Barack Obama this week said that the flag belongs in a museum.

Image
It seems he has changed his tune in the last three years somewhere, however, given that he was using the symbol during his 2012 re-election campaign.

Indeed, Obama had his own Confederate flag campaign badge, which states "Where the confederate flag still flies, we have built a powerful coalition of African Americans and white Americans."

The quote was taken from Obama's racially heated speech in 2008, during which he also praised his mentor former pastor the controversial Reverend Wright.

Obama was not alone in using the symbol of the Confederate flag, synonymous with the South, to solicit political support....

Infowars.com: "Obama And Hillary Both Had No Problem Using Confederate Flag During Presidential Campaigns" (June 24, 2015)
( http://www.infowars.com/obama-and-hilla ... -campaigns )


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Fugu
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24 Jun 2015, 11:24 am

AspieUtah wrote:
Infowars.com wrote:
In the wake of the Charleston shooting, and subsequent pictures of the shooter posing with a Confederate flag, Barack Obama this week said that the flag belongs in a museum.

Image
It seems he has changed his tune in the last three years somewhere, however, given that he was using the symbol during his 2012 re-election campaign.

Indeed, Obama had his own Confederate flag campaign badge, which states "Where the confederate flag still flies, we have built a powerful coalition of African Americans and white Americans."

The quote was taken from Obama's racially heated speech in 2008, during which he also praised his mentor former pastor the controversial Reverend Wright.

Obama was not alone in using the symbol of the Confederate flag, synonymous with the South, to solicit political support....

Infowars.com: "Obama And Hillary Both Had No Problem Using Confederate Flag During Presidential Campaigns" (June 24, 2015)
( http://www.infowars.com/obama-and-hilla ... -campaigns )
infowars isn't any more of a valid source than the weekly world news.

Image



AspieUtah
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24 Jun 2015, 11:30 am

Fugu wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Infowars.com wrote:
In the wake of the Charleston shooting, and subsequent pictures of the shooter posing with a Confederate flag, Barack Obama this week said that the flag belongs in a museum.

Image
It seems he has changed his tune in the last three years somewhere, however, given that he was using the symbol during his 2012 re-election campaign.

Indeed, Obama had his own Confederate flag campaign badge, which states "Where the confederate flag still flies, we have built a powerful coalition of African Americans and white Americans."

The quote was taken from Obama's racially heated speech in 2008, during which he also praised his mentor former pastor the controversial Reverend Wright.

Obama was not alone in using the symbol of the Confederate flag, synonymous with the South, to solicit political support....

Infowars.com: "Obama And Hillary Both Had No Problem Using Confederate Flag During Presidential Campaigns" (June 24, 2015)
( http://www.infowars.com/obama-and-hilla ... -campaigns )
infowars isn't any more of a valid source than the weekly world news.

Ad hominem.


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Fugu
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24 Jun 2015, 11:42 am

AspieUtah wrote:
Fugu wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Infowars.com wrote:
In the wake of the Charleston shooting, and subsequent pictures of the shooter posing with a Confederate flag, Barack Obama this week said that the flag belongs in a museum.

Image
It seems he has changed his tune in the last three years somewhere, however, given that he was using the symbol during his 2012 re-election campaign.

Indeed, Obama had his own Confederate flag campaign badge, which states "Where the confederate flag still flies, we have built a powerful coalition of African Americans and white Americans."

The quote was taken from Obama's racially heated speech in 2008, during which he also praised his mentor former pastor the controversial Reverend Wright.

Obama was not alone in using the symbol of the Confederate flag, synonymous with the South, to solicit political support....

Infowars.com: "Obama And Hillary Both Had No Problem Using Confederate Flag During Presidential Campaigns" (June 24, 2015)
( http://www.infowars.com/obama-and-hilla ... -campaigns )
infowars isn't any more of a valid source than the weekly world news.

Ad hominem.
Do you think that the government was behind 9/11? Alex Jones does.
Do you think that the government was behind the Boston Bombings? Alex Jones does.

[I'd post more examples but that would push the thread offtopic.]

p.s. it's not an ad hominem if I'm attacking your source for being weak.


An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments.



AspieUtah
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24 Jun 2015, 11:48 am

Fugu wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Fugu wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Infowars.com wrote:
In the wake of the Charleston shooting, and subsequent pictures of the shooter posing with a Confederate flag, Barack Obama this week said that the flag belongs in a museum.

Image
It seems he has changed his tune in the last three years somewhere, however, given that he was using the symbol during his 2012 re-election campaign.

Indeed, Obama had his own Confederate flag campaign badge, which states "Where the confederate flag still flies, we have built a powerful coalition of African Americans and white Americans."

The quote was taken from Obama's racially heated speech in 2008, during which he also praised his mentor former pastor the controversial Reverend Wright.

Obama was not alone in using the symbol of the Confederate flag, synonymous with the South, to solicit political support....

Infowars.com: "Obama And Hillary Both Had No Problem Using Confederate Flag During Presidential Campaigns" (June 24, 2015)
( http://www.infowars.com/obama-and-hilla ... -campaigns )
infowars isn't any more of a valid source than the weekly world news.

Ad hominem.
Do you think that the government was behind 9/11? Alex Jones does.
Do you think that the government was behind the Boston Bombings? Alex Jones does.

[I'd post more examples but that would push the thread offtopic.]

p.s. it's not an ad hominem if I'm attacking your source for being weak.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments.

These statements are the definition of ad hominem. And, I amn't claiming to be the victim here.


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Fugu
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24 Jun 2015, 12:12 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Fugu wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Fugu wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Infowars.com wrote:
In the wake of the Charleston shooting, and subsequent pictures of the shooter posing with a Confederate flag, Barack Obama this week said that the flag belongs in a museum.

Image
It seems he has changed his tune in the last three years somewhere, however, given that he was using the symbol during his 2012 re-election campaign.

Indeed, Obama had his own Confederate flag campaign badge, which states "Where the confederate flag still flies, we have built a powerful coalition of African Americans and white Americans."

The quote was taken from Obama's racially heated speech in 2008, during which he also praised his mentor former pastor the controversial Reverend Wright.

Obama was not alone in using the symbol of the Confederate flag, synonymous with the South, to solicit political support....

Infowars.com: "Obama And Hillary Both Had No Problem Using Confederate Flag During Presidential Campaigns" (June 24, 2015)
( http://www.infowars.com/obama-and-hilla ... -campaigns )
infowars isn't any more of a valid source than the weekly world news.

Ad hominem.
Do you think that the government was behind 9/11? Alex Jones does.
Do you think that the government was behind the Boston Bombings? Alex Jones does.

[I'd post more examples but that would push the thread offtopic.]

p.s. it's not an ad hominem if I'm attacking your source for being weak.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments.

These statements are the definition of ad hominem. And, I amn't claiming to be the victim here.
it's not an ad hominem to infer that Jones is a bad source when he's making wild unsupported claims like the two I posted above and you conveniently ignored.

http://www.infowars.com/the-truth-behin ... ing-trial/
http://www.infowars.com/poison-tap-water/



AspieUtah
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24 Jun 2015, 12:17 pm

Fugu wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Fugu wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Fugu wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Infowars.com wrote:
In the wake of the Charleston shooting, and subsequent pictures of the shooter posing with a Confederate flag, Barack Obama this week said that the flag belongs in a museum.

Image
It seems he has changed his tune in the last three years somewhere, however, given that he was using the symbol during his 2012 re-election campaign.

Indeed, Obama had his own Confederate flag campaign badge, which states "Where the confederate flag still flies, we have built a powerful coalition of African Americans and white Americans."

The quote was taken from Obama's racially heated speech in 2008, during which he also praised his mentor former pastor the controversial Reverend Wright.

Obama was not alone in using the symbol of the Confederate flag, synonymous with the South, to solicit political support....

Infowars.com: "Obama And Hillary Both Had No Problem Using Confederate Flag During Presidential Campaigns" (June 24, 2015)
( http://www.infowars.com/obama-and-hilla ... -campaigns )
infowars isn't any more of a valid source than the weekly world news.

Ad hominem.
Do you think that the government was behind 9/11? Alex Jones does.
Do you think that the government was behind the Boston Bombings? Alex Jones does.

[I'd post more examples but that would push the thread offtopic.]

p.s. it's not an ad hominem if I'm attacking your source for being weak.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments.

These statements are the definition of ad hominem. And, I amn't claiming to be the victim here.
it's not an ad hominem to infer that Jones is a bad source when he's making wild unsupported claims like the two I posted above and you conveniently ignored.

http://www.infowars.com/the-truth-behin ... ing-trial/
http://www.infowars.com/poison-tap-water/

Did you just admit to dismissing the facts of the news report for no other reason but the man who published the report? That is the very definition of ad hominem!


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Jacoby
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24 Jun 2015, 12:30 pm

What is hard to believe about recent Democratic presidential candidates utilizing the Confederate battle flag in campaign materials? Bill Clinton was the governor that raised that flag over the Arkansas capitol and added a blue star to the Arkansas flag in commemoration of the Confederacy, him and Gore ran for president as proud Southerners. Hilary in her desperation for the nomination in 2008 took a considerable amount of effort at courting white Democrats in 2008 so its not any surprise she used it then too especially considering Bill's position. Perhaps more surprising with the Barack Obama campaign but they put a considerable amount of effort in creating a new coalition of white and black southerners. Honestly probably every presidential candidate that ever put a significant effort into courting Southern voters probably utilized the Confederate flag on some level of their campaign, remember that doesn't mean they signed off on it or that it was even done by the official campaign.