TV Land pulls Dukes of Hazzard reruns over Confederate Flag!

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GoonSquad
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04 Jul 2015, 1:05 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
You see the flag a whole lot down here. There are some Southern blacks and Southern whites as well who see it as a symbol of racism but most don't. If the flag was so offensive to Southern black people then why isn't there always a big stink when you see it? Why isn't it vandalized? Why don't people who wear it get their ass kicked by those who believe it means they are racists? Why hasn't it been a huge issue down here? You can bet your bottom dollar that if somebody wore something with the Klan on it they would get their ass kicked. If somebody flew the Nazi flag or a flag with something to do with the Klan on it then it would be torn down, torn up, burned, etc. There would be a huge stink every time the flag was seen in public if the majority of people down here thought of it the way Northerners think of it. Race and racial insults and offense are still a sore spot down here. It's something that people do try to avoid upsetting the apple cart on because we are aware of our history and don't want to give that impression. There are some racists who want to give that impression but most people aren't racists. A lot of the Southerners who are against the flag do understand that it doesn't stand for racism to most people now and it means much more than the Old South and the slavery of the Confederacy, but they want to distance themselves from anything that will give Northerners the idea that we are still racist.

So let me ask you this, why is it a much bigger issue up North than it is down here, and why is anybody even safe flying or wearing it if it's always meant to be such a huge symbol of racism and oppression? Could it be that it's not taken that way by most people down here, and it's only taken that way by Northerners? Northerners who btw don't really have any reason to fly or wear the flag except being Skynerd fans or for a hate group that co-opted it.

Ask yourself that question and answer it please. Why is it even flown or shown without huge repercussions? Sure it happens sometimes but if it were seen down here the way it is up North then those repercussions would happen every single time. Also, you wouldn't have a ton of Southerners who are not racist by any means who defend the right to fly it and who try to explain to Yankees what it means to Southerners nowdays.

Do you think maybe that it really could mean something totally different to people south of the Mason Dixon and since we don't come up there trying to put one in your yards, why are you even worrying about it when most of us see it completely different than you do? If somebody in a Southern mixed neighborhood has a rebel flag flying in their yard and it's not bothering any of their neighbors, black or white, they why is it so damned important to the rest of the country that it should?

In my opinion, it is because the vast majority of all Americans just simply don't care about the controversy, if it is, in fact, a controversy. You point out that it isn't highly controversial in your community. Mine, too. It just isn't something people care about, despite probably having a general opinion about it. I believe that it is the professional activists who get their credibility enhanced when they speak out and agitate against certain topics. I know this as a former professional activist. They have a sense that, if they aren't getting public attention, they aren't relevant and they won't sustain their contributors' financial interest. Most everyone who isn't a professional activist won't understand this, and will probably wonder why activists are constantly picking fights about which nobody else cares.

Just because people don't react violently to the flag doesn't mean they aren't offended by it.

Jesus H. Christ.

Good, decent, civilized people don't punch people in the face just because they disagree with them.

There are plenty of people who dislike the flag down south. However, most of them aren't going to cause confrontations about it... Especially when the people flying or wearing the flag are apt to see violence as an acceptable way to settle disputes.


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04 Jul 2015, 1:10 pm

Adamantium wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
One last observation...

It seems like a lot of the arguments for the flag boil down to:

1) Whites have a right to honor/celebrate their heritage.
2) Whites have a right to adopt their own symbols.
3) Whites have a right to control how those symbols a defined.


You could leave out the race of the pro-symbol defender, and just say that fans of the symbols think they should be the arbiters of interpretation of the symbol but this is a wish that is unconnected with reality.

If you know that a symbol that means good things to you is interpreted by others as a statement in support of bad things and that belief is deeply ingrained in them, you are not going to be able to claim that they should re-evaluate the symbol from your frame of reference and adopt your frame as more significant than their own.

Given this, it's probably best not to show the symbol that offends others unless you intend to be offensive.

A Buddhist from east Asia might have fond memories of swastikas as a symbol of their faith and might associate that symbol as a sign of infinite, transcendent compassion and have every reason in the world and many centuries of tradition on to back this view.

But if such a person were to open a meditation center across the street from a synagogue and festoon the facade with swastikas, that person would be creating terrible offense and harm.

Everyone is entitled to interpret the stars and bars however they want, but to choose to ignore the reality that it is a symbol of racial oppression for many or tell them that they are wrong because they have a different frame of reference is to be willfully insensitive.

Yes, that was actually my point...
:P


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04 Jul 2015, 1:26 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Just because people don't react violently to the flag doesn't mean they aren't offended by it....

Offense is a daily supplement in America. I am offended constantly by a lot of politically charged individuals, groups, opinions, ideas, laws and private corporate actions. But, as I have made clear, I support more differences, more speech, more ideas and more debate, not less. There is no constitutional right to not be offended.


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04 Jul 2015, 1:32 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Just because people don't react violently to the flag doesn't mean they aren't offended by it....

Offense is a daily supplement in America. I am offended constantly by a lot of politically charged individuals, groups, opinions, ideas, laws and private corporate actions. But, as I have made clear, I support more differences, more speech, more ideas and more debate, not less. There is no constitutional right to not be offended.

You're absolutely right.

There's also no constitutional right to be immune from social sanctions when you insist on doing things and displaying symbols that many people find offensive and/or silly/feckless.

That's part of free speech too baby!

:D


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04 Jul 2015, 1:35 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Just because people don't react violently to the flag doesn't mean they aren't offended by it....

Offense is a daily supplement in America. I am offended constantly by a lot of politically charged individuals, groups, opinions, ideas, laws and private corporate actions. But, as I have made clear, I support more differences, more speech, more ideas and more debate, not less. There is no constitutional right to not be offended.

You're absolutely right.

There's also no constitutional right to be immune from social sanctions when you insist on doing things and displaying symbols that many people find offensive and/or silly/feckless.

That's part of free speech too baby!

:D

As long as the "sanctions" are lawful and legal. The moment they become unlawful and illegal, those sanctions become crimes.


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04 Jul 2015, 1:36 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Here's my suggestion...

Image


I think they should put this on the roof of the General Lee.

I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to replace, digitally...


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04 Jul 2015, 1:38 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
As long as the "sanctions" are lawful and legal. The moment they become unlawful and illegal, those sanctions become crimes.

You mean like when rednecks kick people's asses or when white supremacists shoot up churches?

I totally agree.


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04 Jul 2015, 1:53 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Just because people don't react violently to the flag doesn't mean they aren't offended by it....

Offense is a daily supplement in America. I am offended constantly by a lot of politically charged individuals, groups, opinions, ideas, laws and private corporate actions. But, as I have made clear, I support more differences, more speech, more ideas and more debate, not less. There is no constitutional right to not be offended.

You're absolutely right.

There's also no constitutional right to be immune from social sanctions when you insist on doing things and displaying symbols that many people find offensive and/or silly/feckless.

That's part of free speech too baby!

:D

As long as the "sanctions" are lawful and legal. The moment they become unlawful and illegal, those sanctions become crimes.



We don't know what, if any, pressure Viacom was responding to when they cut this show from their lineup.

As a private corporation, they are entirely free to decline to air it.

It does not appear that any government office or representative had any hand in it.

If, lets say, the NAACP said they might make a stink about it, the NAACP has a right to make a stink about it. And Viacom must then weigh the pros and cons for themselves.

For all we know, it may have already been unpopular with the management.



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04 Jul 2015, 2:07 pm

Here's another alternative flag...
Image


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04 Jul 2015, 2:10 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I think it's an issue in the South. Nascar has a southern following and the state that's doing the grappling over the old stars and bars at the moment is South Carolina so it does seem like a southern issue at the moment. Northern states aren't grappling with it.



That isn't what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about the HUGE deal that it would be down here now and would have been for decades if people were actually as offended by it here as they are up North. There would have been riots, vandalism, fights, tons and tons of violence, lots of letters to the editor, it would have been on the news constantly, etc. There is occasionally something about it, like this, and like the thing now about flying it at govt buildings, but that really isn't much. After all the s**t that Southern black people had to put up with down here before the Civil Rights and during and the struggle to catch up with the rest of the world after the major changes of the 60's, you really think that Southern black folks would just sit back and not say something if the majority thought that the flag was actually a symbol of racism to anybody except racists? Hell no, and rightfully too. They would have spoken up and not let it go until something was done. It also would have been loud, constant and it would have been a huge issue and displaying it would have basically been tantamount to yelling the N word because that is the kind of reaction you would have gotten by it. Folks down here don't play when it comes to racism. It's not ignored it's addressed. While some people just ignore the old racists, I think they do that because they are old and going to die before long anyway and there is hope that most of the racism goes when that generation does. There are still plenty in other generations but not as many. We kind of match the rest of the country if you don't count the old people.

Any hint of racism is a big deal to us because of our history and if it was that offensive to most people down here, there is no way that it wouldn't be a major, MAJOR issue to everybody, even if you didn't agree with it you would have heard about it constantly on the news, the radio, in the paper, in church, everywhere, etc.


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04 Jul 2015, 2:21 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:

Southern pride isn't based on the Old South, it's based on the present South. Most people I know are not proud of the slavery before the War, nor are they proud of how the South was about Civil Rights. It's pride in having our own culture and traditions now, and our particulars that we engage in every day and not something that happened decades and a century ago.

Also, the flag isn't seen by most people I know as being for white Southerners only, it's for all Southerners. As I've said, I know quite a few black people who have things with the flag on it. The kid who lives with us is black and has one hanging on the wall in his room. He brought it from home along with the Crimson Tide one and the Bob Marley one. He's also got a Rush mirror, a Pink Floyd mirror and a Lynerd Skynerd mirror.

I don't buy into any kind of "White Pride" crap because any kind of vague notion of that is ridiculous. If I were to lean toward any ethnic pride it would be Italian. I've got some things with the Italian flag on it and identify with Italian American culture as well, but more of Southern culture. I don't see anything wrong with having a symbol for Southern culture and lifestyle, and with trying to make damn sure that people know that Southern culture and lifestyle don't have anything to do with racism. Sure, there are racists down here but there are racists all over the country. It's just associated more with the South because of the War and because the Southerners were douchebags about Civil Rights. Most people down here have gotten way past that and we have the same amount of racists that everybody else has, but it's the rest of the country that wants to keep that label on us. Just because we like the flag of the Confederacy does not mean we support racism or any of that bullshit. It was the flag that represented the South and so it seems logical to use it for Southern pride (NOT white pride, Southern pride, two different things). I don't think it's ok to just give up and let the racists have it and use it. I'm willing to fight to be able to fly my flag and to make sure people know that to the rest of us normal Southerners, black and white, it's not about racism, it may be about regionalism but not racism.

Believe whatever you want, but just remember that when you don't believe us when we try and explain something to you that you might as well be a Fundamentalist trying to tell the Pope what the Catholic Church actually teaches, because you heard from everybody in your church what it is.


Okay, I’ll give you the benefit of a doubt and accept that this is meant to represent ‘the new south’ and not hearken back to its racist past.

However, if that’s true, it’s a piss poor symbol considering all the history attached.
You’d really be better off just giving it to the racists, because clinging to it is not putting you in conflict with the racists. Instead, it’s helping the racists by putting you in conflict with everyone else who isn’t a racist…

You know, there are a lot of things I really love about southern culture too. At an individual level, we can be some really great, caring people. And, a lot of the time we exemplify the best things about Christianity… That’s why, even though I’m a bit skeptical about a lot of the supernatural and narrow-minded stuff, I describe myself as a nominal Christian. I really dig the golden rule and all that Sermon on the Mount stuff.

As a matter of fact, I think the way the victim’s families have reacted to Roof, is a prime example of why Southern culture can be great.

Also, damn, we make some good food! (Says the man with a belly full of sausage gravy and biscuits).

Why don’t we come up with a new symbol? One that isn’t associated with a racist past. One that more closely represents the great things about the South and includes all Southerners.

Here's my suggestion...

Image


Honestly, most people won't let it go because it's a matter of pride. We lost the war and as I've said before, we are the only Americans ever to lose a war, we acted like jackasses during the Civil Rights movements, not to mention all the slavery, so we have a bad reputation as racists and now racists are stealing our rebel flag. The flag isn't that important, but it's just that they are using it and the rest of us see it differently and it's more along the lines of adolescent "Oh no you're not gonna do that!" matter of "not losing that fight". It's not important really, but it's the principle of the thing. It makes no sense at all, you know how we are about things. It's more along the lines of "honor". We can make anything about "honor" and this kind of seems like it should be because most of us aren't racists and we don't like being labeled as such so instead of giving up the flag and moving on we are digging in, waving the flag and insisting on telling people the truth of what it means now to most of us, which is logically the absolute worst way to handle it although we mean well. It's just stubbornness. We are probably the most contrary people in the country. We shoot people over SEC football at times, so keeping things in proportion is not exactly our strong suit down here. (I've never shot anybody over football, I don't care about it that much. I'm one of the very few who doesn't care about football)


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04 Jul 2015, 2:37 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
You see the flag a whole lot down here. There are some Southern blacks and Southern whites as well who see it as a symbol of racism but most don't. If the flag was so offensive to Southern black people then why isn't there always a big stink when you see it? Why isn't it vandalized? Why don't people who wear it get their ass kicked by those who believe it means they are racists? Why hasn't it been a huge issue down here? You can bet your bottom dollar that if somebody wore something with the Klan on it they would get their ass kicked. If somebody flew the Nazi flag or a flag with something to do with the Klan on it then it would be torn down, torn up, burned, etc. There would be a huge stink every time the flag was seen in public if the majority of people down here thought of it the way Northerners think of it. Race and racial insults and offense are still a sore spot down here. It's something that people do try to avoid upsetting the apple cart on because we are aware of our history and don't want to give that impression. There are some racists who want to give that impression but most people aren't racists. A lot of the Southerners who are against the flag do understand that it doesn't stand for racism to most people now and it means much more than the Old South and the slavery of the Confederacy, but they want to distance themselves from anything that will give Northerners the idea that we are still racist.

So let me ask you this, why is it a much bigger issue up North than it is down here, and why is anybody even safe flying or wearing it if it's always meant to be such a huge symbol of racism and oppression? Could it be that it's not taken that way by most people down here, and it's only taken that way by Northerners? Northerners who btw don't really have any reason to fly or wear the flag except being Skynerd fans or for a hate group that co-opted it.

Ask yourself that question and answer it please. Why is it even flown or shown without huge repercussions? Sure it happens sometimes but if it were seen down here the way it is up North then those repercussions would happen every single time. Also, you wouldn't have a ton of Southerners who are not racist by any means who defend the right to fly it and who try to explain to Yankees what it means to Southerners nowdays.

Do you think maybe that it really could mean something totally different to people south of the Mason Dixon and since we don't come up there trying to put one in your yards, why are you even worrying about it when most of us see it completely different than you do? If somebody in a Southern mixed neighborhood has a rebel flag flying in their yard and it's not bothering any of their neighbors, black or white, they why is it so damned important to the rest of the country that it should?

In my opinion, it is because the vast majority of all Americans just simply don't care about the controversy, if it is, in fact, a controversy. You point out that it isn't highly controversial in your community. Mine, too. It just isn't something people care about, despite probably having a general opinion about it. I believe that it is the professional activists who get their credibility enhanced when they speak out and agitate against certain topics. I know this as a former professional activist. They have a sense that, if they aren't getting public attention, they aren't relevant and they won't sustain their contributors' financial interest. Most everyone who isn't a professional activist won't understand this, and will probably wonder why activists are constantly picking fights about which nobody else cares.

Just because people don't react violently to the flag doesn't mean they aren't offended by it.

Jesus H. Christ.

Good, decent, civilized people don't punch people in the face just because they disagree with them.

There are plenty of people who dislike the flag down south. However, most of them aren't going to cause confrontations about it... Especially when the people flying or wearing the flag are apt to see violence as an acceptable way to settle disputes.



Considering that we shoot people over college football down here, and even our Supreme Court judges have a very public history of overreacting and blowing s**t out of proportion (Roy Moore) even though it's not always violent, you can bet your bottom dollar that there would be a huge deal made if most people were offended by it. You have to remember that the ones being offended are Southerners too, and they would react just like the ones not offended by it. No, most people aren't that violent and wouldn't go to those extremes but there would be protests, vandalism, lots and lots of discussion on talk radio, news stories, sermons, etc about it. Even if we aren't violent, we WILL speak up and we will do so LOUDLY and continuously until we get our way or something else much bigger happens to distract us. Not everybody would be violent, but some would be. Also, there would be plenty who thought vandalism was a good idea. Remember Toomer's Corner where the guy killed those hundred year old oak trees over a football game just because? Some guy went from toilet paper to serious vandalism in a heartbeat over nothing really, so if you don't think that there would be a lot of vandalism toward any public display of the flag you are sadly mistaken.

Good, decent, civilized people also stand up and make a stink when they feel something like racism is being endorsed all over the place. While there would be violence, it wouldn't all be violence. But it would be something, all the time, and it would be such a big something that folks wouldn't be having that flag all over the place now. It would only be the racists doing it because they would want to do an "in your face" type thing, which is different than the "in your face" type thing the rest of us are doing by keeping it and insisting on explaining. Theirs would be "Yeah I'm a racist, what you gonna do about it?" like a challenge. Ours is a "Oh for the love of God you aren't listening to me it doesn't mean this now and to prove it I'm going to wave it around all over the place!"

There isn't logic to any of it, so if you are looking for that, you are gonna be sadly disappointed. It just is what it is, and makes no sense.


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04 Jul 2015, 2:41 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
As long as the "sanctions" are lawful and legal. The moment they become unlawful and illegal, those sanctions become crimes.

You mean like when rednecks kick people's asses or when white supremacists shoot up churches?

I totally agree.


Not all ass kicking is done by the wrong side. Sometimes the good guys kick some ass too you know. Just because somebody throws the first punch doesn't make them a racist or a bad guy, especially when they are hitting a bigoted twatwaffle.


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04 Jul 2015, 2:58 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I think it's an issue in the South. Nascar has a southern following and the state that's doing the grappling over the old stars and bars at the moment is South Carolina so it does seem like a southern issue at the moment. Northern states aren't grappling with it.



That isn't what I'm talking about though. I'm talking about the HUGE deal that it would be down here now and would have been for decades if people were actually as offended by it here as they are up North. There would have been riots, vandalism, fights, tons and tons of violence, lots of letters to the editor, it would have been on the news constantly, etc. There is occasionally something about it, like this, and like the thing now about flying it at govt buildings, but that really isn't much. After all the s**t that Southern black people had to put up with down here before the Civil Rights and during and the struggle to catch up with the rest of the world after the major changes of the 60's, you really think that Southern black folks would just sit back and not say something if the majority thought that the flag was actually a symbol of racism to anybody except racists? Hell no, and rightfully too. They would have spoken up and not let it go until something was done. It also would have been loud, constant and it would have been a huge issue and displaying it would have basically been tantamount to yelling the N word because that is the kind of reaction you would have gotten by it. Folks down here don't play when it comes to racism. It's not ignored it's addressed. While some people just ignore the old racists, I think they do that because they are old and going to die before long anyway and there is hope that most of the racism goes when that generation does. There are still plenty in other generations but not as many. We kind of match the rest of the country if you don't count the old people.

Any hint of racism is a big deal to us because of our history and if it was that offensive to most people down here, there is no way that it wouldn't be a major, MAJOR issue to everybody, even if you didn't agree with it you would have heard about it constantly on the news, the radio, in the paper, in church, everywhere, etc.



Yeah the south has that mellowness. I get what you are saying. I noticed the same thing in my post about the girl in McKinney, Texas when riots were talked about. Didn't think it would happen in Texas. Even during the civil rights era when blacks faced violence and vandalism in the south, they followed the wisdom of Martin Luther King Jr and protested peacefully.
The north is rowdier.



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04 Jul 2015, 3:03 pm

Not sure if this has already been posted.
The man that purchased the original General Lee plans to repaint it.Just dumb,political correctness gone overboard.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ear ... zzard-car/


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04 Jul 2015, 3:25 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Not sure if this has already been posted.
The man that purchased the original General Lee plans to repaint it.Just dumb,political correctness gone overboard.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ear ... zzard-car/


Hey chick! Where you been? I ain't seen you in forever it seems.

Even if they do repaint it, you know very well that there are more than a few others that are painted just like it so that the guy can have a car like the General Lee. I haven't seen one in this town but I saw one driving around in Bham. Here, the one care I've seen in town with an unusual paint job is the Cheetos car. It's orange too, and an older one as well, but it's got the word Cheetos on it and the cheetah. I don't know if the guy was paid to do that or not. I really hope he was.


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I'm giving it another shot. We will see.
My forum is still there and everyone is welcome to come join as well. There is a private women only subforum there if anyone is interested. Also, there is no CAPTCHA. ;-)

The link to the forum is http://www.rightplanet.proboards.com