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Lintar
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14 Jul 2015, 10:31 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
If these things are all illusion we have no frame of reference for anything not-illusion. Stretching the term that far makes it meaningless.



Exactly! :thumleft:



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14 Jul 2015, 11:02 pm

Is illusion an illusion? And is the illusion of illusion an illusion? And is the illusion of the illusion of illusion an illusion? etc.



techstepgenr8tion
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15 Jul 2015, 5:42 am

Matter, space, time, etc. could be parameters of data on something like a giant computer and it wouldn't make it an illusion. You'd have a description of the delivery method of what we call reality but the delivery method itself doesn't make our reality unreal, just like all of this being a 2-D layer stretched spherically across the surface of a black hole wouldn't make this an illusion nor would 11-dimensional strings mean much in that regard. We might come to consider that what we've seen as good Newtonian common-sense has been profoundly narrow and even faisifiable in certain instances even within it's current relevant range but that's an extrapolation process of the real rather than taking a 'real' frozen in time and disproving it as illusory.


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15 Jul 2015, 6:29 am

Lintar wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Space, time, and number all have objective existence.

Free will is an illusion, unless you have a different definition of free will.


Free will an 'illusion'? Why? Explain.

We think we have it but we actually don't. Our actions are determined by physical laws, and what we do is inevitable. If time reversed and everyone forgot, everything would turn out exactly the same each time.



Grebels
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15 Jul 2015, 8:20 am

Humans are creative. That means we have been able to make so much of our reality. Our creating new things confirrms reality for us.



aghogday
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15 Jul 2015, 11:35 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Lintar wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Space, time, and number all have objective existence.

Free will is an illusion, unless you have a different definition of free will.


Free will an 'illusion'? Why? Explain.

We think we have it but we actually don't. Our actions are determined by physical laws, and what we do is inevitable. If time reversed and everyone forgot, everything would turn out exactly the same each time.


Thinking is not free will..so perhaps for you..you may be correct..but for me NO.. i for one express relative free will in irrefutable fact of ART.

And here's the thing..medical science says it is impossible for a person with the disorders I am diagnosed with.. to physically do what I do including structural issues like Spinal Stenosis and Severe Degenerative Spinal Arthritis precipitated early by a congenitally fused vertebra with all my other problems that I am sure you are well versed enough in now.. if you've been listening to me at all..

Sure you may think YOU do NOT have relative free will; but one day when you feel it you may change your feelings about this in mind and body balance; as that is where the real life is; and then perhaps your thinking may finAlly change my friend; with all due respect; life is too short not to live it without some kind of free will; but yes, sadly enough; some folks apparently live their entire life without any semblance of free will; takes me until age 53 to get tHere; but once one arrives every now is an infinite now of the real kingdom of heaven

It's awakening and or enlightenment my friend; same Truth and Light; different metaphors throughout all human history in different languages and tongues and well before that as well; as it is Universal Truth and Light, my friend always now for human being as is for thousands of years..:)

You may live an illusion; but my life is REAL and totAlly orchestrated by ART of WILL; and trust me it's impossible not to realize it for most folks who meet me in real life; and most folks in real life; have never come close to meeting someone like me; by their words and not mine; my friend..:)

[Mod edit: cut for length and page-disrupting format]


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15 Jul 2015, 11:54 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Lintar wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Space, time, and number all have objective existence.

Free will is an illusion, unless you have a different definition of free will.


Free will an 'illusion'? Why? Explain.

We think we have it but we actually don't. Our actions are determined by physical laws, and what we do is inevitable. If time reversed and everyone forgot, everything would turn out exactly the same each time.


That's one way to state it. Here's another.

When you make a decision to do something, "who" or "what" is doing the deciding? I say the "you" is the total "YOU" that includes all of the events of your life (even the ones you might not like to remember) and this "choice" is facilitated by all the information your unconscious (which is part of you) has accumulated across your lifetime aided by the instinctive part of you (sometimes called your ID, which is also part of you). Your conscious mind can't hold all of this information at one time so certain "sub-programs" developed by your mind fill in the gaps with "experience created instinctive reactions" (as opposed to merely ID created instinctual reactions) to facilitate your making decisions.

In other words it's always the total YOU that makes such decisions. But if we imagine a "different" past and if this past were viewed and evaluated by your earlier subconscious, then in this "different" future you might not make the same decisions. We're all quite malleable and experience, and experiences, either accidental or chosen (and how we interpret them) can and will make a difference in how we "choose" our way through life. :D



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15 Jul 2015, 8:17 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Lintar wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Space, time, and number all have objective existence.

Free will is an illusion, unless you have a different definition of free will.


Free will an 'illusion'? Why? Explain.

We think we have it but we actually don't. Our actions are determined by physical laws, and what we do is inevitable. If time reversed and everyone forgot, everything would turn out exactly the same each time.


Oh come on Walrus, I was expecting better than this! Our actions are only determined to the extent that we cannot violate physical law (ex. defy gravity and fly away like a bird), but just because absolute free will is nonexistent, it does not therefore follow that our actions are determined to the extent that we cannot even make simple choices (ex. to turn left instead of right when one has approached a T-intersection, or even go back the way one came).

I chose to respond to your, in my view completely inadequate, response to my question. I could just as easily have decided to ignore it. I could also have made the decision to actually agree with you, although I have to admit that would have been the most difficult of the three obvious options available to me.

Give it another shot.



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15 Jul 2015, 8:20 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
If time reversed and everyone forgot, everything would turn out exactly the same each time.


How do you know this? Why should I believe you?



Lintar
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15 Jul 2015, 8:26 pm

ZenDen wrote:
When you make a decision to do something, "who" or "what" is doing the deciding? I say the "you" is the total "YOU" that includes all of the events of your life (even the ones you might not like to remember) and this "choice" is facilitated by all the information your unconscious (which is part of you) has accumulated across your lifetime aided by the instinctive part of you (sometimes called your ID, which is also part of you). Your conscious mind can't hold all of this information at one time so certain "sub-programs" developed by your mind fill in the gaps with "experience created instinctive reactions" (as opposed to merely ID created instinctual reactions) to facilitate your making decisions.

In other words it's always the total YOU that makes such decisions. But if we imagine a "different" past and if this past were viewed and evaluated by your earlier subconscious, then in this "different" future you might not make the same decisions. We're all quite malleable and experience, and experiences, either accidental or chosen (and how we interpret them) can and will make a difference in how we "choose" our way through life. :D


ZenDen, all of this is purely speculative. It certainly sounds more convincing than what Walrus provided here, but only because you make more of an effort than he did to justify your stance. It certainly is the case that I will be affected by my past, by certain events that occurred within it, but it cannot be said that those events will override all else and make me do anything at all. I may have a craving for chocolate, or a desire to visit a restaurant when lunchtime comes along because I am hungry, but it is ridiculously easy to override those urges. I am not determined by my physical form, by biology, because I am not just my body. I am so much more than this.



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16 Jul 2015, 9:10 am

Lintar wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Lintar wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Space, time, and number all have objective existence.

Free will is an illusion, unless you have a different definition of free will.


Free will an 'illusion'? Why? Explain.

We think we have it but we actually don't. Our actions are determined by physical laws, and what we do is inevitable. If time reversed and everyone forgot, everything would turn out exactly the same each time.


Oh come on Walrus, I was expecting better than this! Our actions are only determined to the extent that we cannot violate physical law (ex. defy gravity and fly away like a bird), but just because absolute free will is nonexistent, it does not therefore follow that our actions are determined to the extent that we cannot even make simple choices (ex. to turn left instead of right when one has approached a T-intersection, or even go back the way one came).

I chose to respond to your, in my view completely inadequate, response to my question. I could just as easily have decided to ignore it. I could also have made the decision to actually agree with you, although I have to admit that would have been the most difficult of the three obvious options available to me.

Give it another shot.

You seem to have completely misunderstood my point - you have certainly misrepresented it in your post, even if you didn't choose to do so.

Our decision making is determined by events in our brains. Our brains follow physical laws, a string of cause-and-effect events. We sense something, it is relayed to the brain, some ions and neurotransmitters move around, and a response signal is sent out. We are complex games of Mousetrap. Do cliffs have a choice about whether they erode and fall into the sea? Of course not. Our brains are simply more complex versions of that cliff.

You thought you chose to engage with my argument. In reality, you had no choice. Responding to intelligent discussion, whether to engage or to show off or to inform, is part of who you are. You were always going to engage.

Now, you might not engage with this post - but that's because getting frustrated with stupid lines of thinking is part of who you are, or because you're a contrary person. That's just how your neurons are arranged.

Lintar wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
If time reversed and everyone forgot, everything would turn out exactly the same each time.


How do you know this? Why should I believe you?

Why would anyone make any different decisions? If ions diffused in such a way last time, there's no reason to assume they'll diffuse differently if the starting conditions are the same.

Lintar wrote:
I am not determined by my physical form, by biology, because I am not just my body. I am so much more than this.

If this were true, it would make free will a real possibility. To my knowledge, there is absolutely no evidence that it is. Please provide some evidence that there is more to you (or living things generally) than your physical form. I would also be interested in knowing exactly when this extra thing evolved. Are other primates much more than their bodies? Other amniotes? Vertebrates? Chordates? Animals? Eukaryotes? Cellular life forms? Do viruses have something extra to them? What about abiotic organic chemistry?



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16 Jul 2015, 9:17 am

Because Walruses always have truly reversible logic.



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16 Jul 2015, 11:11 am

^^^

"getting frustrated with stupid lines of thinking is part of who you are, or because you're a contrary person. That's just how your neurons are arranged."

IRONY; SAD IRONY.

AND no
illusion.


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16 Jul 2015, 11:30 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Lintar wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Lintar wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Space, time, and number all have objective existence.

Free will is an illusion, unless you have a different definition of free will.


Free will an 'illusion'? Why? Explain.

We think we have it but we actually don't. Our actions are determined by physical laws, and what we do is inevitable. If time reversed and everyone forgot, everything would turn out exactly the same each time.


Oh come on Walrus, I was expecting better than this! Our actions are only determined to the extent that we cannot violate physical law (ex. defy gravity and fly away like a bird), but just because absolute free will is nonexistent, it does not therefore follow that our actions are determined to the extent that we cannot even make simple choices (ex. to turn left instead of right when one has approached a T-intersection, or even go back the way one came).

I chose to respond to your, in my view completely inadequate, response to my question. I could just as easily have decided to ignore it. I could also have made the decision to actually agree with you, although I have to admit that would have been the most difficult of the three obvious options available to me.

Give it another shot.

You seem to have completely misunderstood my point - you have certainly misrepresented it in your post, even if you didn't choose to do so.

Our decision making is determined by events in our brains. Our brains follow physical laws, a string of cause-and-effect events. We sense something, it is relayed to the brain, some ions and neurotransmitters move around, and a response signal is sent out. We are complex games of Mousetrap. Do cliffs have a choice about whether they erode and fall into the sea? Of course not. Our brains are simply more complex versions of that cliff.

You thought you chose to engage with my argument. In reality, you had no choice. Responding to intelligent discussion, whether to engage or to show off or to inform, is part of who you are. You were always going to engage.

Now, you might not engage with this post - but that's because getting frustrated with stupid lines of thinking is part of who you are, or because you're a contrary person. That's just how your neurons are arranged.

Lintar wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
If time reversed and everyone forgot, everything would turn out exactly the same each time.


How do you know this? Why should I believe you?

Why would anyone make any different decisions? If ions diffused in such a way last time, there's no reason to assume they'll diffuse differently if the starting conditions are the same.

Lintar wrote:
I am not determined by my physical form, by biology, because I am not just my body. I am so much more than this.

If this were true, it would make free will a real possibility. To my knowledge, there is absolutely no evidence that it is. Please provide some evidence that there is more to you (or living things generally) than your physical form. I would also be interested in knowing exactly when this extra thing evolved. Are other primates much more than their bodies? Other amniotes? Vertebrates? Chordates? Animals? Eukaryotes? Cellular life forms? Do viruses have something extra to them? What about abiotic organic chemistry?


Dude, I suggest you do a little MORE research into epigenetics, neuroplasticity, cognitive behavioral therapy, and biofeedback, in general; and MANY other areas of human pursuit.

Zoology 101 does not cover this or Biology 101. Humans are more than robots or parasites, my friend.

Experience is the WELL spring of wisdom and freedom; you are still relatively green my friend; and that's just how reality goes with human nature. Just means you are young baby and and have a long way to go STILL to understand more of what life can bring.
I hope that helps, eventually; but for now it seems to me that you are still locked in Plato's first cave, with all due respect.

And if this distorts your picture of reality;
please feel free to moderate it out;
sincerely, with all due respect.

FRED

The ONLY WAY to develop human relative free will is TO DEVELOP IT; IT AIN'T COST FREE; Years of real life practice baby; flesh and blood practice.


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16 Jul 2015, 1:40 pm

Well said Fred. Ther's nothing I can add.



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16 Jul 2015, 1:42 pm

Grebels wrote:
Well said Fred. Ther's nothing I can add.

Smiles, and thank you, friend..:)


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