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How do you interact with people with Down's Syndrome?

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Zoonic
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14 May 2009, 5:59 pm

marshall wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
marshall wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
In the large picture, a mass murderer isn't more evil than anyone else. Entire solar systems and even galaxies are destroyed all the time without us even knowing about it. The universe doesn't evolve around neurotypical people on earth. In my oppinion an aspie mass murderer might well be more worthy of life than a law abiding neurotypical.

You can't argue a moral position based on the nature of the universe. That's the same trite justification employed by practically all psychopaths. I'm a bit of a nihilist myself but I still maintain that mass murder is wrong. You're entitled to your opinion but you can't pretend that it's any more logically correct than mine.


Humans don't have more value than insects in the overall picture. Maybe all psychopaths reason like that but it's still true. Humans are not the center of the universe and certainly not created in God's image. There's nothing special with the human species. Spiritually I have renounced my humanity and instead accepted total destruction in the face of the universe. To me, anyone who is so arrogant that they think their life is worth more than the life of an insect is truly unclean and filthy.

I'm not religious at all but I value human life because it gives my life more value to care about people. I don't really place humanity as a whole above anything else in the universe but I still choose to care about people on an individual level. I don't see how this makes me arrogant. It's just preserving my own sanity.

I'm not trying to objectify anything. The value of life is subjective. You're the one objectively stating that human life has no value. That's not logical. It just looks like emotionally driven bitterness to me, sour grapes. I'm only saying this because I get the same way whenever I'm depressed and spend too much time thinking about the world. Believe me, there are times where I sit and think that if there were a red button in front of me I would press it and blow all humanity to hell. But then the mood passes and I feel differently.


It's entirely the other way around. People who are happy start to fool themselves that human life is important and valuable, even though they know logically they are wrong they still think "what the hell, I'm happy, life has no meaning? so what". I don't want to be like that because it would make me lose touch with what is truly beautiful in existence and my spiritual life would grow weaker.
I don't want to be just another happy, filthy human who rolls around in his own s**t together with other s**t lovers.



marshall
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14 May 2009, 8:09 pm

Zoonic wrote:
It's entirely the other way around. People who are happy start to fool themselves that human life is important and valuable, even though they know logically they are wrong they still think "what the hell, I'm happy, life has no meaning? so what". I don't want to be like that because it would make me lose touch with what is truly beautiful in existence and my spiritual life would grow weaker.
I don't want to be just another happy, filthy human who rolls around in his own sh** together with other sh** lovers.

That still looks like a sour grapes argument to me. It looks like you're saying "I don't have any meaning to my life, therefore anyone else who claims to have meaning must be lying / delusional / full of sh*t, etc".



Danielismyname
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14 May 2009, 8:17 pm

Warsie,

Martin was diagnosed by a psychiatrist. Another psychiatrist questioned it, but he used the incorrect definition of AS (he used the social behaviour of someone with Autism rather than AS as a basis of his argument). Anyway, the diagnosis still stands, and he is in a prison designed for people with mental health problems now.



Zoonic
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14 May 2009, 8:21 pm

Danielismyname wrote:
Warsie,

Martin was diagnosed by a psychiatrist. Another psychiatrist questioned it, but he used the incorrect definition of AS (he used the social behaviour of someone with Autism rather than AS as a basis of his argument). Anyway, the diagnosis still stands, and he is in a prison designed for people with mental health problems now.


In Sweden you can't diagnose anyone with below average IQ as AS, only autist. I guess Australia is different since Bryant is claimed to suffer from slight retardation in terms of intelligence and has a very low IQ.



Zoonic
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14 May 2009, 8:23 pm

marshall wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
It's entirely the other way around. People who are happy start to fool themselves that human life is important and valuable, even though they know logically they are wrong they still think "what the hell, I'm happy, life has no meaning? so what". I don't want to be like that because it would make me lose touch with what is truly beautiful in existence and my spiritual life would grow weaker.
I don't want to be just another happy, filthy human who rolls around in his own sh** together with other sh** lovers.

That still looks like a sour grapes argument to me. It looks like you're saying "I don't have any meaning to my life, therefore anyone else who claims to have meaning must be lying / delusional / full of sh*t, etc".


You don't get it, even if life is fun and you feel like you're "living in the moment", it's still worthless being human. I've tried to erase my humanity all my life by keeping a perfect hygiene and having plastic surgery etc, I don't want to be a normal human, I never wanted to. Humans are filthy, farting, burping, stickyfinger f**ktards. Life can be really enjoyable but it's still meaningless, knowing this prevents me from truly enjoying life. I just want a new revelation or just die. I'm dreaming of being brutally murdered.



Danielismyname
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14 May 2009, 8:45 pm

Zoonic wrote:
In Sweden you can't diagnose anyone with below average IQ as AS, only autist. I guess Australia is different since Bryant is claimed to suffer from slight retardation in terms of intelligence and has a very low IQ.


If Sweden uses the ICD-10 or DSM-IV-TR, or even Gillberg's, mild mental retardation is possible, as long as there was no delay in cognitive development that was evident as a child, and that the IQ of 60 to 75 or so was picked up in the school years. (I can provide the quotes.)

But anyway, there's other murderers who have AS and also a normal IQ (a former member of this very site was one).

Have there been any people with DS who murdered others? I'm assuming that there is/was, but you don't hear of it.



Zoonic
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14 May 2009, 8:51 pm

Danielismyname wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
In Sweden you can't diagnose anyone with below average IQ as AS, only autist. I guess Australia is different since Bryant is claimed to suffer from slight retardation in terms of intelligence and has a very low IQ.


If Sweden uses the ICD-10 or DSM-IV-TR, or even Gillberg's, mild mental retardation is possible, as long as there was no delay in cognitive development that was evident as a child, and that the IQ of 60 to 75 or so was picked up in the school years. (I can provide the quotes.)

But anyway, there's other murderers who have AS and also a normal IQ (a former member of this very site was one).

Have there been any people with DS who murdered others? I'm assuming that there is/was, but you don't hear of it.


Plenty of murderers had AS. Virginia tech, a racist killer in Belgium, one of the school killers in Finland. AS actually increases the risk of someone becoming a murderer, I don't argue with that but I don't see it as necessarily morally wrong either.

I wouldn't kill others, but everytime I read about a new massacre I think to myself "yay!".



Last edited by Zoonic on 14 May 2009, 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

subliculous
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14 May 2009, 9:11 pm

Zoonic wrote:
I just want a new revelation or just die. I'm dreaming of being brutally murdered.


Hey man, there's always the cyanide capsule down in der Führerbunker.



Zoonic
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14 May 2009, 9:12 pm

subliculous wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
I just want a new revelation or just die. I'm dreaming of being brutally murdered.


Hey man, there's always the cyanide capsule down in der Führerbunker.


That's not how I wanna die. I want to be shot dead in the open street. I guess I'll have to go to Rio de Janeiro for that to happen.

Cyanide is something you use as a last resort to avoid capture and humiliation, or to cheat your executioners. If you aren't wanted or up for execution, there's no point in cyanide.



LolaGranola
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14 May 2009, 9:22 pm

My three-year-old step sister has DS. She's significantly high functioning and very happy.
I hardly see her, though. And I don't know anyone else with DS personally.


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14 May 2009, 10:25 pm

Zoonic wrote:
subliculous wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
I just want a new revelation or just die. I'm dreaming of being brutally murdered.


Hey man, there's always the cyanide capsule down in der Führerbunker.


That's not how I wanna die. I want to be shot dead in the open street. I guess I'll have to go to Rio de Janeiro for that to happen.

Cyanide is something you use as a last resort to avoid capture and humiliation, or to cheat your executioners. If you aren't wanted or up for execution, there's no point in cyanide.


jesus. humour much?



Zoonic
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14 May 2009, 10:42 pm

subliculous wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
subliculous wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
I just want a new revelation or just die. I'm dreaming of being brutally murdered.


Hey man, there's always the cyanide capsule down in der Führerbunker.


That's not how I wanna die. I want to be shot dead in the open street. I guess I'll have to go to Rio de Janeiro for that to happen.

Cyanide is something you use as a last resort to avoid capture and humiliation, or to cheat your executioners. If you aren't wanted or up for execution, there's no point in cyanide.


jesus. humour much?


My humour lies in a pretended lack of self distance, I am the humour, but I've never met anyone who understood it or rather, understood that I have self distance.



subliculous
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14 May 2009, 10:45 pm

Meh. *dismissive wave*



Katie_WPG
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15 May 2009, 12:13 pm

As far as the functioning question goes...

You have to consider this as a statistical example.

"All adults with AS" is the population.

"All adults diagnosed with AS" is a sample of the population, and a very biased one at that.

It is biased because not all members of the population have the same chance of being represented in the sample.

Selection for the "sample" is determined based on psychologist analysis, and many "extra" criteria are used. (Example: Not only do you have to be delayed socially, you must also be delayed in self-help skills. Not only do you have to have trouble making friends, you have to be socially repulsive to the point where you can't keep down a job.)

There are many members of the "population" that fit the first criterion for those two sentences, but not the second ones. So, they are screened out of the "sample", and the ones that fit all of those criteria are let in.

Many research projects about adults with AS draw their sample (here known as "Sample 2") from the initial sample (known as Sample 1). They have started out with the assumption that "Sample 1" IS the population. Some sampling methods that they use are even MORE biased than the methods used for determining Sample 1.

For example, researchers are likely to contact AS support groups for Sample 2 members. Many support organizations are parent-run, not self-advocacy. If they contact parent-run orgs, then chances are, they are going to run into either very young or very dependant adults with AS. Many people officially diagnosed with AS just want to go about their business, and be left alone. They are less likely to be associated with support groups or day programs, ESPECIALLY parent-run groups.

So, in the end, you might only get the "bottom 10%" of the population in Sample 1, and you might get the "bottom 10%" of Sample 1 in Sample 2. Essentially what I'm saying is to take these research papers on the functioning level of adults with a tiny grain of salt.