How do you interact with people with Down's Syndrome?

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Zoonic
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14 May 2009, 8:16 am

Danielismyname wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
You still don't get it.

DS will always be handicapped and challenged in ANY society, whether it exists or not. Asperger people can function well if society is suited to them. DS is a malformity, AS isn't.


I actually do, as people with AS will be handicapped and challenged in any society, as society is based on social functioning; people with AS are seriously disabled in regards to social functioning, so they'll always be disabled, no matter the society it is. A society is a complex based on social relations, and those with DS aren't as profoundly affected as even the mildest forms of autism in regards to social functioning.

Now, if you were to say that people with AS could function well in a mechanical collective, something like a hive where specialisation is desired, yes, someone with AS will function well if their specialisation is useful to the collective.

Humans aren't insects.


People with AS can function as long as the social rules aren't the same as in the current society. Far from everyone with AS have a specialization.

You're talking out of your ass, seriously. "Any" society? Not every society is like 19th century America and onward.

Imagine this scenario. Feudal Europe, a village of neurotypical peasants... All of a sudden the golden carriage of mad Prince X, an aspie, rolls into the village square. These neurotypicals wouldn't care less if the prince looked them in the eyes or not. They would bow and fear the wrath of the mad prince and do everything he said no matter how absurd it seemed. The prince on the other hand would be free to pursue his interests as an artist, fencer and archeologist without the mob interfering. The NT mob would be happy as long as they could have sex in the barn, food on the table and occasional cheap boozing. Just like any fundamental NT (or Down's person) regardless of the development level of society. Who says society can't be suited to aspies?

In fact countless people in power over the centuries have had AS. In ancient times the rate was probably even higher. How many leading historical people had Down's? Zero, not a single one. So please stop the bullshitting. Aspies can function in a lot of societies where mob rule (America, declaration of independance etc) isn't how things are structured. Not every society has to have middle-classes, jocks and vainful neurotypicals controlling their own fate by becoming unethical Wall Street people. In fact, in a lot of non-democratic societies, depending on birthright, the survival rate of aspies would be dramatically higher and they wouldn't at all be handicapped.



Sora
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14 May 2009, 10:37 am

Zoonic wrote:
Asperger people can function well if society is suited to them.


Lots of people with AS can't no matter what society does or doesn't. Some can, others cannot.

If you for example can function well, then you do not have AS by official definitions of the widely manuals ICD-10 and DSM-IV-TR.

I just don't think you are aware of what you are implying because you haven't thought as far and are not informed about the many facets of autism and about other disabilities, especially Down's.

Because else I'd think you're a ignorant and rude person. Tell me?

Imagine: you were to talk to people who are autistic and actually don't care as much about society as you do because their autism disables them in several ways that are not related to social interaction (or social interaction just isn't their problem), then you say... what do you say if you now here claim that this cannot be? I mean, right now you claim those people don't exist and since this is not true you probably just haven't considered them much before?

About about that:

Zoonic wrote:
DS will always be handicapped and challenged in ANY society, whether it exists or not. [...] DS is a malformity, AS isn't.


I expect you do not mind others calling you malformed for your autism either? Do you or don't you would be sad or angered, feeling insulted or anything?

Others have their personal definitions of autism too and that might include malformation, just like you have your personal definition of AS so it could happen and they have as much right to do it as you, if you think you can generalise about people with Down's and insult them.


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Zoonic
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14 May 2009, 11:01 am

Sora wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
Asperger people can function well if society is suited to them.


Lots of people with AS can't no matter what society does or doesn't. Some can, others cannot.

If you for example can function well, then you do not have AS by official definitions of the widely manuals ICD-10 and DSM-IV-TR.

I just don't think you are aware of what you are implying because you haven't thought as far and are not informed about the many facets of autism and about other disabilities, especially Down's.

Because else I'd think you're a ignorant and rude person. Tell me?

Imagine: you were to talk to people who are autistic and actually don't care as much about society as you do because their autism disables them in several ways that are not related to social interaction (or social interaction just isn't their problem), then you say... what do you say if you now here claim that this cannot be? I mean, right now you claim those people don't exist and since this is not true you probably just haven't considered them much before?

About about that:

Zoonic wrote:
DS will always be handicapped and challenged in ANY society, whether it exists or not. [...] DS is a malformity, AS isn't.


I expect you do not mind others calling you malformed for your autism either? Do you or don't you would be sad or angered, feeling insulted or anything?

Others have their personal definitions of autism too and that might include malformation, just like you have your personal definition of AS so it could happen and they have as much right to do it as you, if you think you can generalise about people with Down's and insult them.


I have AS, not autism. Your mind is really crude and clumsy if you think that's the same thing. Autists can't even wipe their own asses, they aren't aware of many things happening around them, they suffer from mental retardation. None of this applies to people with AS.
I'm talking about AS specifically, not severe autism here.

People claiming autism and AS is fundamentally the same thing use a form of logic which would also mean that a finely crafted pair of shoes and a piece of leather from a freshly slaughtered animal, still dripping of blood, are the same because that leather is used to make the shoes, or that firewood and a dining table are the same because they're both made of wood.



Last edited by Zoonic on 14 May 2009, 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Danielismyname
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14 May 2009, 11:03 am

Zoonic wrote:
People with AS can function as long as the social rules aren't the same as in the current society. Far from everyone with AS have a specialization.


And you base all of your rhetoric on? There's not a single fact that supports the conclusion that people with AS would have been better adapted to the 19th or 1st century (or whatever century); it's all speculation. A lack of eye contact is the least bothersome aspect of Asperger's; the most bothersome in regards to social adaptation is the lack of care for social, emotional and cultural norms no matter the society (source: Lorna Wing and Hans Asperger), which leads on to disability today, and to speculate, led on to far worst things in the past. Plus, have you seen many people with AS out and about working with people? The grand majority can't handle being around people, let alone using their cognitive potential for some greater good; if you can't use your IQ of a zillion, it doesn't matter at all if it's 30 or 160, as you can't use it.

As far as I know, the only person who's dead and has been said to have AS is Adolf Hitler (a leader that is); not exactly the greatest person there (a person with DS and an IQ of 60 would have done a better job. Taking on the world militarily? Good idea there).



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14 May 2009, 11:07 am

Danielismyname wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
People with AS can function as long as the social rules aren't the same as in the current society. Far from everyone with AS have a specialization.


And you base all of your rhetoric on? There's not a single fact that supports the conclusion that people with AS would have been better adapted to the 19th or 1st century (or whatever century); it's all speculation. A lack of eye contact is the least bothersome aspect of Asperger's; the most bothersome in regards to social adaptation is the lack of care for social, emotional and cultural norms no matter the society (source: Lorna Wing and Hans Asperger), which leads on to disability today, and to speculate, led on to far worst things in the past. Plus, have you seen many people with AS out and about working with people? The grand majority can't handle being around people, let alone using their cognitive potential for some greater good; if you can't use your IQ of a zillion, it doesn't matter at all if it's 30 or 160, as you can't use it.

As far as I know, the only person who's dead and has been said to have AS is Adolf Hitler; not exactly the greatest person there (a person with DS and an IQ of 60 would have done a better job. Taking on the world militarily? Good idea there).


I mentioned aristocracy of past ages as examples. Priests of that time is also a good example. None of these people needed any understanding of humans, their role in society didn't require it. The mob didn't require it either, they were just required to do the work others gave them, they had no freedom.

In far east Asia, asperger types are traditionally seen as sacred people and in many asian cultures they enjoyed high status as wise men, hermits and monks.
In jewish society of the 17th century in Poland, many chassidic rabbis are believed to have had AS and these people were respected and at the top of these societies even though they didn't understand social interaction and lived on welfare. Chassidic judaism is extremely well adapted to asperger people.

Wake up from your stupid ideas, there's plenty of evidence supporting that aspies can function extremely well in societies adapted to them.

Hans Asperger grew up in Austria, the single most social darwinist country of the industrial age. The country which created Hitler and nazism because of it's extreme views on what was "correct" in society, who was a failure and who wasn't. Those ideas do not speak for all of civilization.
Your view on civilization is shaped out of the views of the american middle-class and the liberal social darwinism of your society which says "if you got social skills, you can get to the top of a big company or become the king of Wall Street or become president!". Society wasn't always like this, maybe that's hard for you to accept. The ultimate society isn't necessarily one where everyone have freedom and the majority rules. A minority society can be just as effective where the majority are slaves.

History shows asperger people have been at the top of society, but never have there been a Down's person anywhere in a position of power.



Danielismyname
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14 May 2009, 11:16 am

Zoonic wrote:
Priests of that time is also a good example.


So, where are your sources that state these people have AS?

Why would someone with AS be more predisposed to being a religious figure of the past anymore than a witch [who was burnt at the stake], for example? People with AS follow their own interests, rather than any social pressure placed on them; a person with AS who was forced into doing something he or she didn't want to do in the past would have had a harder time as understanding of mental disorders wasn't the same as it is today. You do know that people with AS were put in institutions 50 to 100 hundred years ago, with other less-than-normal people? I could say that parents in the past locked their children with AS up in the basement to hide them from others several hundred years ago to escape persecution, and it'd be just as accurate as what you've said.

I see no facts, other than speculation on your part.

O, and if you base worth on superficial means, that's an opinion. Someone with DS who doesn't harm anyone is far more worthy of life than the individual with AS who murders people (there's plenty of these latter people. Martin Bryant being the perfect example).



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14 May 2009, 11:21 am

Zoonic wrote:
Autists can't even wipe their own asses, they aren't aware of many things happening around them, they suffer from mental retardation. None of this applies to people with AS.


You have been talking to several people with classical autism on WP already. You might also have read responses from people with various levels of classical autism from high-functioning to low-functioning already.

Your response now based on a lack of knowledge especially about classical autism is saddening, seeing how WP and many members here stand to for spreading awareness about the autistic spectrum in all directions.

It's of no use talking to you again if you do not want to learn about AS and the autistic spectrum, so I will refrain until you have started to learn. I don't think any attempt to talk about PDDs will get us everywhere if you use such language about people with classical autism.


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14 May 2009, 11:26 am

Danielismyname wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
Priests of that time is also a good example.


So, where are your sources that state these people have AS?

Why would someone with AS be more predisposed to being a religious figure of the past anymore than a witch [who was burnt at the stake], for example? People with AS follow their own interests, rather than any social pressure placed on them; a person with AS who was forced into doing something he or she didn't want to do in the past would have had a harder time as understanding of mental disorders wasn't the same as it is today. You do know that people with AS were put in institutions 50 to 100 hundred years ago, with other less-than-normal people? I could say that parents in the past locked their children with AS up in the basement to hide them from others several hundred years ago to escape persecution, and it'd be just as accurate as what you've said.

I see no facts, other than speculation on your part.

O, and if you base worth on superficial means, that's an opinion. Someone with DS who doesn't harm anyone is far more worthy of life than the individual with AS who murders people (there's plenty of these latter people. Martin Bryant being the perfect example).


In the large picture, a mass murderer isn't more evil than anyone else. Entire solar systems and even galaxies are destroyed all the time without us even knowing about it. The universe doesn't evolve around neurotypical people on earth. In my oppinion an aspie mass murderer might well be more worthy of life than a law abiding neurotypical.



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14 May 2009, 11:47 am

Zoonic wrote:
In the large picture, a mass murderer isn't more evil than anyone else. Entire solar systems and even galaxies are destroyed all the time without us even knowing about it. The universe doesn't evolve around neurotypical people on earth. In my oppinion an aspie mass murderer might well be more worthy of life than a law abiding neurotypical.


Yes, they do, but entire solar systems aren't killed with intent and bias; the death of a star is something that's without thought and with no morality involved, it's purely unbiased (which makes it beautiful to me).

That's an interesting philosophy you have there; one that I don't understand, as someone who takes life with a conscious decision and without a justified reason is something that's evil, no matter what disorder the person has or doesn't. And those who do such, to me anyway, aren't worthy of life compared to those who don't, no matter what disorder they do or don't have. But, to each their own.

It appears you're identifying with and "defending" a group which is seemingly persecuted and held back in society, which are "aspies" in this case; that's also something that I don't understand, as a group is but a social construct. Perhaps you're indentifying with yourself and your experiences in not being able to reach your full potential; this can make someone angry with the world and the society they live in, as people like blaming others for how they are, rather than looking at themselves and seeing what they can do, and moving past the negatives.

I scored 160 on an IQ test in grade 5, and I'm a simple farmhand as an adult; one can say that my potential is wasted..., but for me, I like doing what I do, as I have time to think about things without external distraction; which really, isn't that what makes us, and that's those with AS, reach our full potential (sitting in the basement tinkering away away from the distractions of society)?



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14 May 2009, 11:57 am

Danielismyname wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
In the large picture, a mass murderer isn't more evil than anyone else. Entire solar systems and even galaxies are destroyed all the time without us even knowing about it. The universe doesn't evolve around neurotypical people on earth. In my oppinion an aspie mass murderer might well be more worthy of life than a law abiding neurotypical.


Yes, they do, but entire solar systems aren't killed with intent and bias; the death of a star is something that's without thought and with no morality involved, it's purely unbiased (which makes it beautiful to me).

That's an interesting philosophy you have there; one that I don't understand, as someone who takes life with a conscious decision and without a justified reason is something that's evil, no matter what disorder the person has or doesn't. And those who do such, to me anyway, aren't worthy of life compared to those who don't, no matter what disorder they do or don't have. But, to each their own.

It appears you're identifying with and "defending" a group which is seemingly persecuted and held back in society, which are "aspies" in this case; that's also something that I don't understand, as a group is but a social construct. Perhaps you're indentifying with yourself and your experiences in not being able to reach your full potential; this can make someone angry with the world and the society they live in, as people like blaming others for how they are, rather than looking at themselves and seeing what they can do, and moving past the negatives.

I scored 160 on an IQ test in grade 5, and I'm a simple farmhand as an adult; one can say that my potential is wasted..., but for me, I like doing what I do, as I have time to think about things without external distraction; which really, isn't that what makes us, and that's those with AS, reach our full potential (sitting in the basement tinkering away away from the distractions of society)?


The human mind is also a result of something bigger going on, just like when two galaxies collide and countless solar systems are destroyed. I don't make a distinction between things that happen since it's all part of the overall picture. To me, humans are so truly insignificant that I couldn't care less if some averagely dressed, ugly middle class people were massmurdered. By giving up the will to be human, I accept fate.



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14 May 2009, 3:48 pm

Zoonic wrote:
In the large picture, a mass murderer isn't more evil than anyone else. Entire solar systems and even galaxies are destroyed all the time without us even knowing about it. The universe doesn't evolve around neurotypical people on earth. In my oppinion an aspie mass murderer might well be more worthy of life than a law abiding neurotypical.

You can't argue a moral position based on the nature of the universe. That's the same trite justification employed by practically all psychopaths. I'm a bit of a nihilist myself but I still maintain that mass murder is wrong. You're entitled to your opinion but you can't pretend that it's any more logically correct than mine.



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14 May 2009, 4:08 pm

Zoonic wrote:
History shows asperger people have been at the top of society, but never have there been a Down's person anywhere in a position of power.


I envy people with Down Syndrome. They may have shorter lifespans, limited mental capabilities, and other a slight facial disfigurements...yet people in this society seem to repect them more than they do Autistic or AS people.

I guess it has to do with the fact that they still have NT-like social skills. Ugh



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14 May 2009, 4:32 pm

marshall wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
In the large picture, a mass murderer isn't more evil than anyone else. Entire solar systems and even galaxies are destroyed all the time without us even knowing about it. The universe doesn't evolve around neurotypical people on earth. In my oppinion an aspie mass murderer might well be more worthy of life than a law abiding neurotypical.

You can't argue a moral position based on the nature of the universe. That's the same trite justification employed by practically all psychopaths. I'm a bit of a nihilist myself but I still maintain that mass murder is wrong. You're entitled to your opinion but you can't pretend that it's any more logically correct than mine.


Humans don't have more value than insects in the overall picture. Maybe all psychopaths reason like that but it's still true. Humans are not the center of the universe and certainly not created in God's image. There's nothing special with the human species. Spiritually I have renounced my humanity and instead accepted total destruction in the face of the universe. To me, anyone who is so arrogant that they think their life is worth more than the life of an insect is truly unclean and filthy.



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14 May 2009, 4:56 pm

Zoonic wrote:
Autists can't even wipe their own asses, they aren't aware of many things happening around them, they suffer from mental retardation. None of this applies to people with AS.


wut? You're incorrect there

Danielismyname wrote:
Someone with DS who doesn't harm anyone is far more worthy of life than the individual with AS who murders people (there's plenty of these latter people. Martin Bryant being the perfect example).


IIRC he didn't have AS...


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14 May 2009, 5:45 pm

Zoonic wrote:
marshall wrote:
Zoonic wrote:
In the large picture, a mass murderer isn't more evil than anyone else. Entire solar systems and even galaxies are destroyed all the time without us even knowing about it. The universe doesn't evolve around neurotypical people on earth. In my oppinion an aspie mass murderer might well be more worthy of life than a law abiding neurotypical.

You can't argue a moral position based on the nature of the universe. That's the same trite justification employed by practically all psychopaths. I'm a bit of a nihilist myself but I still maintain that mass murder is wrong. You're entitled to your opinion but you can't pretend that it's any more logically correct than mine.


Humans don't have more value than insects in the overall picture. Maybe all psychopaths reason like that but it's still true. Humans are not the center of the universe and certainly not created in God's image. There's nothing special with the human species. Spiritually I have renounced my humanity and instead accepted total destruction in the face of the universe. To me, anyone who is so arrogant that they think their life is worth more than the life of an insect is truly unclean and filthy.

I'm not religious at all but I value human life because it gives my life more value to care about people. I don't really place humanity as a whole above anything else in the universe but I still choose to care about people on an individual level. I don't see how this makes me arrogant. It's just preserving my own sanity.

I'm not trying to objectify anything. The value of life is subjective. You're the one objectively stating that human life has no value. That's not logical. It just looks like emotionally driven bitterness to me, sour grapes. I'm only saying this because I get the same way whenever I'm depressed and spend too much time thinking about the world. Believe me, there are times where I sit and think that if there were a red button in front of me I would press it and blow all humanity to hell. But then the mood passes and I feel differently.