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Owl123
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19 Jul 2015, 12:46 am

Today I really really feel upset. My blood boiling exceeds 100 degress celsius when I saw our puppy suffering because it was thrown to the ground by a cruel person.


I almost had meltdowns. I cannot weigh how much hurt I feel and felt the time I knew it and saw how such poor puppy suffers. How much more if I witness Yulin festival?!
I really cannot understand why do I feel this so much pain and anger for what I consider injustice. My little brother and older sister don't react the way I do, they knew that every time. I cannot understand why I feel this way.

I feel as though my heart is being crushed by the weight of the world. I wanna shout on the top of my lungs. "STOP HURTING ANIMALS" "STOP YULIN FESTIVAL", "STOP MAKING ANIMALS FASHION".

I'm an advocate for Animal rights as well as Human rights. I know it's hypocrite to say that I also eat meat and dairy products. It's just this day that makes me realize a lot of things. I don't wanna see our puppy suffer. We don't eat dogs and cats in our family's culture. It's just this day that much to my tumult was ripped open and bursted out this great empathy for suffering animals.


Do anyone also feel the way I do for animal rights?



Misery
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19 Jul 2015, 4:51 am

I can understand how you feel, pretty much.

Were anyone to do that to a pet of mine, I'd outright attack them, without hesitation. With the intention of causing pain (lots of it) rather than damage. Though I tend to be paranoid and really protective to begin with, so as a rule, no stranger gets close to my dog, as I wont allow it.

And frankly, I might have the same reaction if I were to encounter anyone else abusing an animal. I cant imagine how anyone could do that sort of crap, but of course it happens.

And out of curiosity, though I'm not entirely sure that I want to know, what is this "Yulin festival"? Something tells me it's not something very pleasant.



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19 Jul 2015, 5:37 am

Oh my god oh my god oh my god.

I didn't know what "Yulin Festival" was either; I just googled it.

DON'T GOOGLE IT.

Extremely upsetting to animal lovers and those for animal rights. Graphic images from within China, of visibly terrified, miserable cats and dogs awaiting barbaric slaughter in inhumane conditions, and graphic images of slaughtered cats and dogs.

WTF???


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19 Jul 2015, 6:10 am

I respect animal rights activists ( some of my closest firends are active in such groups), even if I don't support the whole of their agenda or agree with the lengths they are willing to go to. I think they serve an important role in being a counterbalance to the meat industry in a society that does indeed have rising demands for meat, running the risk of compromising ethics for the sake of productivity. That being said, I also don't think veganism inherently holds the moral high ground, nor do I think it's right to force anyone into what is, at the end of the day, a political standpoint.

As for the Yulin Festival. I get that some people are uncomfortable with the idea of eating cats and dogs. I think this is a cultural bias that they should get over. What I find worth opposing tooth and nail is the idea that seems to be widespread in Korea and China (possibly neighbouring nations as well) that the release of adrenaline makes the meat taste better, which is used to justify torturing the animals before slaughter. This idea has no basis in reality, and is in my submission nothing short of toxic.


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19 Jul 2015, 6:38 am

Seeing that advice of not Googling it, I didnt Google it, but instead just used Wikipedia (which tends to have very few, if any, images, for which I am now thankful), and just reading about it.... just.... what in the numerous hells is wrong with people?

There are so many people in the world that could use a good kick where it counts, administered (more than once) by a huge horse of some sort. Methinks the organizers of that event are some of those people.

Quote:
I respect animal rights activists ( some of my closest firends are active in such groups), even if I don't support the whole of their agenda or agree with the lengths they are willing to go to. I think they serve an important role in being a counterbalance to the meat industry in a society that does indeed have rising demands for meat, running the risk of compromising ethics for the sake of productivity. That being said, I also don't think veganism inherently holds the moral high ground, nor do I think it's right to force anyone into what is, at the end of the day, a political standpoint.

As for the Yulin Festival. I get that some people are uncomfortable with the idea of eating cats and dogs. I think this is a cultural bias that they should get over. What I find worth opposing tooth and nail is the idea that seems to be widespread in Korea and China (possibly neighbouring nations as well) that the release of adrenaline makes the meat taste better, which is used to justify torturing the animals before slaughter. This idea has no basis in reality, and is in my submission nothing short of toxic.


Dogs and similar animals though, are a bit different, and the difference, I think,is the true reason for the outrage.

Dogs have been bred for a bazillion years to be specifically attuned to humans as a whole. As a rule, dogs sort of have a default view of humans as allies. Note "default" there. In order to see us as hostile, they pretty much have to be conditioned to it (usually). Unlike the vast majority of animals out there.

To me, this means there's more to the whole thing. Killing deer or something via hunting can be bad enough, but with animals like dogs, because of their essentially-programmed relationship with us as a whole... it's also a very nasty form of betrayal. As if a member of their own pack suddenly went bad and started trying to kill the others. That's part of why I find it so angering. I aint the only one, either, that's for damn sure.

Just.... ugh. Cant stand that crap. Kudos to those that are trying to put a stop to it.



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19 Jul 2015, 6:39 am

Wolfram, you may be assuming some things. My own shock, speaking for myself, is not necessarily to do with the fact that anyone eats dog or cat meat, but rather because of the APPALLING conditions and the APPALLINGLY INHUMANE manner in which these animals are slaughtered.

I don't care about what people eat, it's just completely unnecessarily for those animals to be treated in such a way that they experience terror, dirty conditions, s**t and pee and misery (YES animals DO experience the same kind of misery and terror we can feel -- we are animals too, where do you think our ability to feel fear came from?).

I felt the same way when I discovered that the fur trade in China tears the hide off the animal's body while it's still alive and screaming in agony.

NONE of this is cruelty is necessary.


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19 Jul 2015, 6:46 am

Also, as noted in the article -- some of those dogs are stolen pets.

There is even one wearing a collar in one of the photos of the dogs stuffed into cages. A collar.

Sorry, but whatever anyone thinks about cultural acceptance of eating dog meat, for fcks sake leave people's actual domestic pets the fck alone... Excuse my language, but COME ON.

Seriously. Cultural "getting over it" be damned, I don't care.

Misery makes a great point, too, about the domestic "ally" nature of dogs. I think that in just the same way that you can argue that certain cultures accept certain animals to be fair game for food, you must also allow equal "cultural" reasons why another culture abhors that animal being used in that way. If it's fair enough for them to eat what they eat, it's fair enough for us to have our own belief that it's barbaric in our view of that animal's relationship to us.

It's all arbitrary in the end.

In the United Kingdom, it used to be culturally and socially acceptable to eat swans. Mute swans were bred for royalty to feast on.

Things changed around and now they are a protected species carrying heavy punishment should anyone be caught using the swans for food. Everyone now takes that on board and most people are outraged when they hear that someone has used swans in this way.

There is NOTHING WRONG with a culture creating its accepted ways regarding respect for our stewardship of animals, since humans are the ones with the power over most other animal species to either make their existences a living hell or a decent life. And people who are aware of that shouldn't be expected to simply not have a reaction to ....China's ways.

What I just don't want is CRUELTY involved.


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Last edited by BirdInFlight on 19 Jul 2015, 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Misery
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19 Jul 2015, 6:55 am

BirdInFlight wrote:
Also, as noted in the article -- some of those dogs are stolen pets.

There is even one wearing a collar in one of the photos of the dogs stuffed into cages. A collar.

Sorry, but whatever anyone thinks about cultural acceptance of eating dog meat, for fcks sake leave people's actual domestic pets the fck alone...

Seriously. Cultural "getting over it" be damned, I don't care.

Misery makes a great point, too, about the domestic "ally" nature of dogs. I think that in just the same way that yo can argue that certain cultures accept certain animal to be fair game for food, you must also allow equal "cultural" reasons why another culture abhors that animal being used in that way.

It's all arbitrary in the end.

What I just don't want is CRUELTY involved.


Yep.

I tend to think exactly the same way in regards to... any function an animal might have. Not just "animals as food", but even something like having horses to ride on, or dogs to breed... these animals should be given the chance to be happy, in return for the function they provide, whatever that may be. In many cases, they genuinely are given that chance; for example, those who own horses specifically for riding can get all sorts of obsessive and protective over the animal, and the bond ends up making that function go that much better, same as breeding. And of course the problem comes in when you get things like "puppy mills", which are, well... pretty freaking horrible.

Not to mention that I also see that whole betrayal thing as, in fact, a form of cruelty. Betrayal in general can be like that. Imagine a mother and child, right... the instinctive thing for the child to do is to trust the mother. But if, say, the mother were to suddenly start punching the child at random intervals, that's betrayal right there, and I cant imagine that anyone would say that it ISNT a form of cruelty. It's obviously a bit different when it happens between people rather than with animals, but the concept remains the same, and I find it abhorrent.



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19 Jul 2015, 7:01 am

I agree, Misery.

We are a species that have the most amount of practical ability to create conditions for the other animals sharing the planet with us. It's because we have such a huge level of control over what other species lives are going to be like -- even in the case of wild species -- we OWE it to them to be very careful with that power.

From domesticated animals that we use for purposes of companionship, hobbies, sports, recreational use, working relationship or even slaughter for our own food, right on up to wild species whose habitats we can ruin, or not -- we owe it to them to not let their lives be as wretched as we might be able to make them be.

We have a lot of ability to make an animal's existence far more hell than even their natural fates would be.

It's this responsibility we need to take seriously.


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On the other hand, friends will never need an explanation, and enemies bent on disliking me will never accept one.

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Wolfram87
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19 Jul 2015, 7:42 am

BirdInFlight wrote:
Wolfram, you may be assuming some things. My own shock, speaking for myself, is not necessarily to do with the fact that anyone eats dog or cat meat, but rather because of the APPALLING conditions and the APPALLINGLY INHUMANE manner in which these animals are slaughtered.


Possible, but I thought I adressed this; the idea that suffering improves meat quality is toxic. I don't like the thought of eating what is traditionally seen as pets and companions in the west, but I recognize a cultural bias in that regard. It's not like pigs aren't comparatively intelligent pack animals, just like dogs, even if it's possible that animal husbandry has made dogs more intelligent and pigs less.

Quote:
I don't care about what people eat, it's just completely unnecessarily for those animals to be treated in such a way that they experience terror, dirty conditions, s**t and pee and misery (YES animals DO experience the same kind of misery and terror we can feel -- we are animals too, where do you think our ability to feel fear came from?).

Again, folklorish idea that suffering is good for the meat. An idea on par with the "raping virgins cures AIDS" in terms of how much good can come of it.

Sidenote, I do not agree that all animals are equally capable of suffering, but for the purpose of this discussion; we are close enough to these animals for that to be true enough.


Quote:
I felt the same way when I discovered that the fur trade in China tears the hide off the animal's body while it's still alive and screaming in agony.

NONE of this is cruelty is necessary.


Agreed, although with regards to the fur, one has to wonder why? Even if you don't care at all about the suffering of the animal, wouldn't it be easier to flay a dead animal? Maybe suffering makes the fur "better", too... :evil:


Quote:
Seriously. Cultural "getting over it" be damned, I don't care.

To clarify, I'm only specifically talking about the gut reaction of "Oh no, they eat dog and we dont, therefore it's bad", which is a reaction I have seen to this festival. I absolutely loathe the torture they're putting these animals through, and stealing pets like this should be considered closer to murder than to theft, although I suspect that won't be the case.


BirdInFlight wrote:
Misery makes a great point, too, about the domestic "ally" nature of dogs. I think that in just the same way that you can argue that certain cultures accept certain animals to be fair game for food, you must also allow equal "cultural" reasons why another culture abhors that animal being used in that way. If it's fair enough for them to eat what they eat, it's fair enough for us to have our own belief that it's barbaric in our view of that animal's relationship to us.

It's all arbitrary in the end.


Not entirely. I'm sure India has a thing or two to say about most of the rest of the worlds bovine consumption, which is arbitrary in a way. However, I think degree of suffering, even if it can't be measured in any objective unit that I know of, would constitute as close to an objective starting point as possible. And on those terms, these practices fail miserably.

As for domestic alliances, I understand what you mean, but I think that's an overanthropomorphization.

Quote:
We have a lot of ability to make an animal's existence far more hell than even their natural fates would be.

It's this responsibility we need to take seriously.


I don't disagree, although I think most people severely understimate how hellish the natural world is capable of being.


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19 Jul 2015, 8:19 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
As for domestic alliances, I understand what you mean, but I think that's an overanthropomorphization.


I used the term "ally" mostly because I couldnt think of a better word (common for me) and am too lazy to spend much time in trying to do so (also usually just results in me getting aggravated).

It's a simple fact though that the natural instinct of dogs (obviously not JUST dogs, but they're the easiest example) and such, after a bazillion years of specialized breeding, is to trust us. Perhaps that's a better way to put it. It's been programmed into them, and it's our doing. As opposed to most animals, which have a reaction of fear and flight. And this is exactly where the "dogs as food" thing becomes genuinely bad to so many, and so angering.

I've forgotten whatever else I was going to say. Be nice if that would bloody well stop happening every five minutes.



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19 Jul 2015, 9:43 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
As for the Yulin Festival. I get that some people are uncomfortable with the idea of eating cats and dogs. I think this is a cultural bias that they should get over. What I find worth opposing tooth and nail is the idea that seems to be widespread in Korea and China (possibly neighbouring nations as well) that the release of adrenaline makes the meat taste better, which is used to justify torturing the animals before slaughter. This idea has no basis in reality, and is in my submission nothing short of toxic.


Different cultures eat different animals, that's one thing. I personally feel it is wrong to eat dogs because of their deep connection with humans, strong empathy, and acute social sensitivity to what's going on around them... Seeing other dogs suffering and getting killed around them would be incredible emotionally distressing. However, let that rest because the discussion about different food cultures would derail the key issue, which is extreme animal abuse.

What's so upsetting about the Yulin festival and Asian dog meat trade in general, is the horrendous mistreatment involved in all aspects of the process of the dogs becoming food... Torture is a pretty accurate description of the slaughter process. It involves dogs being squeezed together in small cages and transported for days in a hot climate with no food or water. The lucky ones die during the transport, because after that it gets much worse: dogs are beaten, force fed in mechanical devices again and again to maximise their market weight, while they scream in pain and vomit (and often die during the process, no one cares), and they are often skinned and boiled while alive. Hell on Earth, really. I can't think of a slaughter process of any other species that comes anywhere near such extreme, shocking, drawn-out mistreatment.

What's heartbreaking is also the fact that many of these dogs are captured street dogs and stolen pets. Imagine your pet is missing... or a street dog you know and care about, are used to see in your everyday life... and you know it may have been snatched for the dog meat trade. Time passes, and you don't know what happened to your friend, just that there is a high probability it may have been tortured to death as one of thousands of other dogs, industrially. I would worry about it every day for the rest of my life if I lost a pet or street dog friend like that; I would never be able to leave it behind, I would be so angry and sad every day, caught in an endless speculative loop of hope & despair without knowing what had happened.

There are some warnings in here about googling the topic... I'd like to support that warning, the information can be extremely upsetting. When I heard about the Asian dog meat industry I googled it, read articles, saw images of hundreds of mistreated dogs, and worst of all: watched some undercover footage filmed by animal welfare activists with hidden camera, showing examples of some of the abuse here under force feeding, live skinning and live boiling. It is incredible traumatic if you care about animals, don't look it up. A specific image from the footage burned itself into my memory and has starred in recurring nightmares and just been stuck on my mind ever since, a source of anger, despair and depression because I feel powerless - the poor dogs I saw are gone long ago under the most horrific circumstances, and many have since suffered a similar fate. I recommend to skip the information search because it is incredible traumatising, and not worth it... nightmares help no one. I recommend to instead go directly to help support activists/organisations who work to stop the supply and the markets, and to help by sponsoring one of the lucky dogs rescued from the dog meat trade... because their challenges aren't over when they are picked off the trucks, usually their original owner can't be found and they can't be just dumped on the street, they need short term care taking and long term solutions.

I chose to support the organisation Soi Dog in Thailand. They work to stop the dog meat trade of Asia and in particular Vietnam, which used to traffic thousands of stolen Thai pet and street dogs to the kind of hellish ending described above. Soi Dog put up "dub-a-truck" signs along the main highway routes for Vietnamese dog traffickers, which helped make Thai people aware of the problem. Many of the trucks that were stopped (where the dogs were rescued and the traders arrested), were dubbed in by drivers on the highway who saw the truck + signs, and dubbed in the trucks from their mobile phones. The dogs rescued from these transports are in safe in facilities in Northern Thailand, but in need funds/sponsorships and new homes (many of the dogs are reckoned to be stolen pets - looking at the photos, many do look like normal pet dog types). Soi Dog is happy to rehome the dogs overseas, if buyer (or a sponsor) buys the plane ticket. More highway signs can also be sponsored. Link to Soi Dog here: http://soidog.org/en/dogmeat/.

I'm not sure what to do to stop the Yulin Festival, but they're just one aspect of the industrial atrocities that make up the dog meat trade of Asia, and I think working against the dog meat trade of any part of Asia will help fuel the global push against the industry to eventually shut it down. The sooner this happens, the fewer animals will have to go through such immense torture.



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19 Jul 2015, 6:10 pm

Since I am a meat-eater, I cannot claim any moral superiority in the area of animal rights.
I violate animals' rights to life, and I feel no different about eating dog vs. eating pig, as they are both animals.
I think that people who are against eating dogs but eat other animals should not claim to be animal rights advocates, but instead admit the truth that they just don't want others eating animals they like.


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19 Jul 2015, 6:22 pm

I'm with the vegans. I hate the idea of people causing animals to suffer, and the environmental and health arguments make sense to me also.



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20 Jul 2015, 6:00 am

btbnnyr wrote:
Since I am a meat-eater, I cannot claim any moral superiority in the area of animal rights.
I violate animals' rights to life, and I feel no different about eating dog vs. eating pig, as they are both animals.
I think that people who are against eating dogs but eat other animals should not claim to be animal rights advocates, but instead admit the truth that they just don't want others eating animals they like.


Again, someone assuming a lot of the others posting here.

Nobody is claiming "moral superiority."

We're just saying "JESUS CHRIST ON A FREAKING CRACKER, DO THEY HAVE TO FCKING TREAT THOSE DOGS SO CRUELLY??????"

How can anyone disagree with that? What the hell is wrong with you? Whether you eat meat or not? Did you even check this out?

I don't eat meat or wear leather. I don't claim any fcking superiority. I just don't want to support harm. I'm not perfect and my veganism is by no means complete or flawless, but I do my best to avoid supporting any industry that does not use as humane methods as possible to achieve what they're doing involving animals.

So don't tell me I have no claim on caring about animal rights, or I should "admit" anything about "animals I like".

That's BULL s**t. And you know it. You're just being antagonistic because you enjoy a fight if you can pick one out.

However, even if somebody DOES still eat meat, you're argument is still a crock --- because it's not hypocrisy to still want the least amount of actual cruelty and torture done to the animals in the process.

I don't see how that jars with still being a consumer of animals. As Temple Grandin herself knows, there's a humane way to raise and slaughter, and a barbaric way.

It's also not anthropomorphizing to acknowledge that animals are as capable as we are of:

Fear
Panic
Distress
Fight or flight adrenaline rush
Anger-type reactions
Bonding (oxtyocin is in animals too, not just us)
Distress reaction from bonds broken or bonded animal witnessed suffering

The people who talk condescendingly about "anthropomorphizing" forget one important thing:

WE ARE ANIMALS ALSO.

We are mammals.

Our "emotions" -- our fear response, our anger response, our fight-or-flight-or freeze, and even our oxytocin-fueled bonding urges, which we simply anthropomorphized OURSELVES by calling it "love," are ALL our heritage from BEING ANIMALS, not the other way around.

There is now research catching up on this fact. That it's not us projecting our human emotions on animals, it's that we GOT them from our animal heritage.

Animals need a fear response in order to flee. They need something that behaves like our "anger" to fight and protect. They need bonding or what we call "love" to stick with their young and raise them successfully instead of abandon them.

All this is traditionally pooh poohed as "anthropomorphizing" when in fact these things are true and it's we who have decided to elevate ourselves by claiming to be the only mammals who "developed" these traits, then naming them our own human names such as "love" etc.

Point yourself toward that picture of that cat climbing the cage bars and tell me that isn't an animal you know right away to be TERRIFIED.

The issue here is a pretty freaking simple one.

It's not about "ooh don't eat that, in my country that's a pet"

Its not about "I eat meat but ooh YOU shouldn't kill that doggie for food"

IT'S ABOUT "WHAT THE CRAP ARE YOU TREATING THEM THIS INHUMANELY FOR?"

I won't be back to this thread because the simple wrongness of this matter is clear to me and I'm not going to waste energy even debating with someone who doesn't get it.


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On the other hand, friends will never need an explanation, and enemies bent on disliking me will never accept one.

ASD Level 1, PTSD. Plus anxiety with panic attacks, mild sub-clinical situational depression -- and a massive case of sheer freakin' BURNOUT.

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